Promoting unity

[goldenhawk786]

I am sorry to the rest of the brothers whom i may not reply to or i have given a late reply. i am on many different forums, trying to answer DOZENS of questions at a time, so forgive me, if i have missed your question. i am new to this forums and i am try to talk to everyone at the same time and doing my own work therefore it's really tough. jazkallah

[goldenhawk786]

@ Mubid al-Majus...i am sorry brother, but i think we are on different wave lengths. you are clearly not trying to understand what i am trying to say to you and maybe i am not trying to understand you either. if that is the case then I am sorry brother. if you dont want to talk with me anymore then thats fine as communication is obvously an issue between us. my allah guide us all.

[h4honesty]

Thank you and salam

Dear Goldenhawk

I really feel that you seem to be a honest guy trying to eradicate the misconceptions of shia religion. Somehow i agree that most of the things written about shias by sunnis and about sunnis by shias seem to be baseless.

However, i also feel that you dont have a sound knowledge about your sect. There are various questions which are not properly answered by you. How can you remove the misconceptions without answering those questions which are mentioned in this forum. Since, the debate has been initiated by you, you should have a thorough knowledge and try to convince everybody over here.

As i told you my best friend is a shia and most of my friends are also shia. After talking to them and also seeing your answers, i tend to beleive that for you shias, everything revolves around Ali (Ra) and his descendants. It is your firm belief that today muslims are suffering because the haqq of Ali (Ra) was not given. There are many more things. However i dont think so that there is any logic in it.

Again, i would like to pose two more questions. I dont know whether you will be able to answer or not as again non of my shia friends were able to answer my question :

1. Did Hasan (RA) had any sons. If yes, Can you name the sons of Hasan (RA)?
2. Why is Imamat offered to Hussain (RA) and not to sons of Hasan (RA), if he had any sons?

I know again you will tell me that you are not expert in this field. In that case, I would request you to kindly read your scriptures very well so that you are able to answer our questions.

Otherwise i feel you will continue to get all the firing from the sunnis over here.

Hope Allah (SWT) guides ME, guides YOU and guides ALL the Human Beings.

Jazakallah

[syed_muslim]

salaam aleilum

Imam Jaffar Sadiq r.a. is considered a Sunni by the Ahlus Sunna. The lies attributed to him by the Shia dont really help his cause, but let me iron it out - we dont see a problem with him. Furthermore, the status of Imam Abu Hanifa r.a being his student is disputed too, Allah knows best.

Now its disputed? I just dont know what more to say to that. im just shocked to here this from a non salafie ???

I love the way Shias argue by logic...the same logic they use to say, for example, that you cannot possibly see Allah's face on day of judgement because logically it is not possible if it wasnt possible for Prophet Musa a.s. etc Sorry, I am only mentioning this random point so people can realise that the Shia methodology is very much logic-dependent which is what sways a lot of innocent people away from the path of light to darkness.

Bit random? but we can go on and on with the logic the ahle sunnah use in various ways? but will this discussion go somewhere then, or will we go round and roun dand round non stop?

You are right....after hearing it 50 times I am not an expert..but experienced. Oh, but doesnt studying at a Shia school and their teachings and listening to their teachers make me better equipped than most? Surely that makes me a MINI-expert?

mini expert? Brother i studied in sunni maddressa. Majority people around me are sunni. I have sunni friends. I go sunni mosque with my inlaws. My other half is sunni. Heck, i get analysed my belief day in day out with non shias 24.7. And guess what they want an answer there and then. Just because you went to one school doesnt make you a mini expert.

Brother, with all due respect, stop being so sly with the whole "you havent presented any proof your just shouting" mantra. I told you, there is plenty of proof on this forum alone - forget all the other places online and offline! In fact, the brothers in this very thread have presented ENOUGH to you people. Deal with that yeah? I'm done with the polemics, I just make a point to make it clear when one of you is lying or deceiving others.

The only one lying and deceiving here is the one claiming the other one is doing so...

So please carry on with your copy and paste jobs...I am sure that makes you people the experts right?

This brother is a classic example of the majority out there that are non muslims. Basing their belief on hearsay, basing it on people they see instead of proof. Its a classic mistake. Tell me brother, if you were a non muslim, would you become a muslim with this attitude you show today? would you have this open mind? or would you judge what you see on tv. I know plenty non muslims that join muslim schools and havent converted. just use your mind.

But you seem comitted in what you believe, and you seem to believ you are the mini expert on shias,

so here my offer: lets start a one to one discussion, just you and me, and let it be based on Imamate.
It would be good if a moderator could be involved in this to ensure the topic doesnt get sidetracked, and to ensure noone else participates in the topic. Just you and me. and needs to be explained based on quran and hadith.

What you say? Heres your chance to prove what you know?

Ali

[h4honesty]

salaam aleilum


Now its disputed? I just dont know what more to say to that. im just shocked to here this from a non salafie ???



Bit random? but we can go on and on with the logic the ahle sunnah use in various ways? but will this discussion go somewhere then, or will we go round and roun dand round non stop?


mini expert? Brother i studied in sunni maddressa. Majority people around me are sunni. I have sunni friends. I go sunni mosque with my inlaws. My other half is sunni. Heck, i get analysed my belief day in day out with non shias 24.7. And guess what they want an answer there and then. Just because you went to one school doesnt make you a mini expert.


The only one lying and deceiving here is the one claiming the other one is doing so...



This brother is a classic example of the majority out there that are non muslims. Basing their belief on hearsay, basing it on people they see instead of proof. Its a classic mistake. Tell me brother, if you were a non muslim, would you become a muslim with this attitude you show today? would you have this open mind? or would you judge what you see on tv. I know plenty non muslims that join muslim schools and havent converted. just use your mind.

But you seem comitted in what you believe, and you seem to believ you are the mini expert on shias,

so here my offer: lets start a one to one discussion, just you and me, and let it be based on Imamate.
It would be good if a moderator could be involved in this to ensure the topic doesnt get sidetracked, and to ensure noone else participates in the topic. Just you and me. and needs to be explained based on quran and hadith.

What you say? Heres your chance to prove what you know?

Ali

Dear Brother

Dont get excited.

Peace in the name of Allah (Swt)

Hope Allah (swt) guides ME, guides YOU and ALL the Human Beings

[LightUponLight-]

Wa'alaykum salam,

Brother Ali, WHICH sunni madrassa did you study in? Enlighten us with the truth... Please do mention the exact madrassa. Like I said, I have dealt with LOADS of shias who claim to have been previous sunnis etc... even great gandchildren of shia ayatollahs have said the same rubbish to me too - its as ridiculous as having Khomeinis son telling me "I used to be a sunni".... yeah(!)

Also, brother - you seem to talking nonsense? Here read it:

This brother is a classic example of the majority out there that are non muslims. Basing their belief on hearsay, basing it on people they see instead of proof. Its a classic mistake.

Im basing it on my Shia TEACHERS at my SHIA school, using SHIA books and sources. Your TEACHERS are proof of your religious beliefs, are they not?

As for your comments about being open minded etc. SECRET TIME!

Another COMMON statement you hear from Shia's is..."you should not just believe in anything you are taught. Just because you are born in a Sunni house does not mean it is the right path. That is narrow minded. That means if you were born a Christian you would remain a Christian because you dont want to listen to other peoples beliefs because you feel you are rightly guided."

^Doesnt that sound so appealing? Well they have a point. Which is why when I see my family members involved in certain innovations and ridiculous acts that they attribute to Islam, I leave. I have been amongst Shia's, studied their beliefs, contemplated their beliefs and thought about it well. I have also thought about and studied the beliefs of the Sunni Muslims, even the Salafis, even Qadiyannis. What is your point brother? You still think I am like the majoirty of the non-muslims? You dont even know me! I dont follow something because my forefathers follow it. So your argument is baseless.

My claim of being a mini expert is not a credential for which I have a degree. Lighten up, I am trying to say that, having lived amongst your people, studied under them, with them, around them, above them....I happen to know a lot about your beliefs and what the reality is of your creed. I know how you pray, what you believe in, what you say about Sunnis, what you distort from Sunni references, I know the usual arguments that you people present, I know the typical strategies you use (i.e. "Brother I used to be sunni"...or the more popular one > "Brother LETS UNITE!" ) etc. NOT a mini expert in the sense that I have ijaza from your scholars, or I am a qualified Shia scholar - God forbid such a life.

I know plenty non muslims that join muslim schools and havent converted. just use your mind.

^ Ever heard of..Whomsoever Allah guides none can misguide and whoever He allows to fall astray, none can guide them aright.. Maybe that explains it better why some people change their beliefs whilst others dont, despite going to schools and being amongst certain people 24/7 - so I agree with you, that just because someone goes to a shia school or sunni school does not necessarily mean he will accept it and become a shia or a sunni. But whats your point?

As for the status of Imam Abu Hanifa ra, it is disputed by some and accepted by many. Those who dispute tend to be the Saudi crowd, including some friends of mine who are highly knowledgeable in matters of Shia and take from such scholars. Again what is your point? I have already made it clear the Ahlus Sunnah consider Imam Jaffar Sadiq ra as part of the Ahlus Sunna and certainly not a Shia or what the Shia claim. Now, bearing that in mind - if Imam Abu Hanifa was his student, so what? If he was not, so what? Do you get it?

As for the one to one discussion - brother you have plenty of unanswered questions in this thread alone by other brothers. Why dont you respond to those? The brothers who have spent time and effort researching deserve an answer at least. These brothers are more knowledgable than me so you can discuss with them too. I am here to expose the tactics of your lot, to share what I know and have learnt. Whenever I can contribute to this thread I will, as much as I know. I hope that you will not use copy and paste jobs from the big shia websites. I have had those thrown at me in the past, and I am glad to see brothers here who have access to so many of the resources which the shia reference. SO I hope you can see, I am only hear to see that you have an honest and clear discussion WITHOUT the nonsense copy paste jobs or emotional strategies. That way everyone remains happy

[syed_muslim]

salaam,

theres couple of reasons i want a one to one discusion. As we can keep the discussion going in a good order and fashionable manner instead of everyone bombarding with questions without the discusion moving forward.

you raised alot of points yourself , how can i physically answer everyone elses? I have not got the time nor the resources,

hence i asked for a one to one discussion.

Brother Ali, WHICH sunni madrassa did you study in? Enlighten us with the truth... Please do mention the exact madrassa. Like I said, I have dealt with LOADS of shias who claim to have been previous sunnis etc... even great gandchildren of shia ayatollahs have said the same rubbish to me too - its as ridiculous as having Khomeinis son telling me "I used to be a sunni".... yeah(!)

lol, I can give you the address, but what will that prove? It is known that alot of shias do attend sunni maddressah if a shia one is not nearby. I happened to live in an area back in the day where the shia was far to long to travel and instead went to the sunni one.

You seem to be fixated on the idea that the shia use tactics and its all games. It is surely a very ignorant way to look at things and might be easier for you to accept that your belief is 100 % sound.

As you rejected my offer , which im understandable as it shows your lack of knowledge about shias, ill leave this offer open to anyone that would like a one to one discussion on imamate. If interested please do PM me and you can arrange a moderator to controle the thread, be it shia or sunni.

Brother lightuponlight, i wish you all the best, and i will not be participating in this thread and replying to your post, mainly as its not moving forward. If you are interested in a formal discussion, please send me a message

Shukran

Ali

[LightUponLight-]

Brother Ali,

Note how not even a SINGLE post by any of the brothers has been answered - why is that? Why do you not at least answer ONE of them and I am sure everyone else will give you space to answer freely.

Brother, shias REGULARLY lie under the guise "I USED to be sunni...", its just a fact you dont like but its a fact nonetheless. Been there done that, many times. "A lot of shias attend sunni madrassas"? Clearly, we are talking about a different kind here - I have been around hardcore Iraqi and Iranian shia's. They would rather be dead than in a Sunni madrassa. The ones you talk of I have not seen.

My lack of shia knowledge is subjective - lacking according to you - but I have said it myself, I don know everything and I am here to contribute as much as I know. So dont play word games.

Brother, If you know SO much that you wish to hold a one to one discussion, why not just answer ONE of the posts by the brothers? This discussion is going nowhere because not a SINGLE justified response has come from a shia brother on this thread. You have all ignored the researched posts by the brothers. Dont hide your knowledge, tell us what it is that you know You dont need to reply to every single post on this thread - two of the brothers have asked questions - at least answer one of them and take it from there. Alternatively, start a fresh thread on just "Imamate" and talk about the usual Sahih Bukhari hadith of 12 and the much stretched ayats wherever the figure 12 is mentioned. *yawns* Or...and this is the clever bit...read the numerous threads on this forum that have already dealt with Sunni Shia issues including the myth of "Imammate".

[caravan of martyrs]

dont waste your time with the shias they have been shown up. been over a week and the two of them are yet to answere ONE questioned. when we tell them not to result to taqiya or copy n paste jobs they are stuck then spout of this rubbish about lack of respct lol. as for imamat. if it was really that essential why did Allah (swt) not mentioned in the quran. secondly the hadith states 12 califs from the quraish not 12 califs from ahle bait. furthmore apart from the first two non of the remaining imams were califs,. also why didnt hasan (ra) son become a IMAM but his brother did. it breaks your imam chain as the rest are direct descendents ie son of father. finally why did hasan (ra) give imamat to muwaiya (ra) didnt he know it had to be ahle bait.

[Aashiq-e-Rasool(saw)]

I have spent stupid amount of hours debating and exposing these frauds....hours which could have been spent seeking more beneficial knowledge and busying myself in worship.

As-salam Alaikum!!
You know I seriously thought this guy is looking for the truth, but since the result of the discussion is the usual I have with other shiites, now i understand why our scholars say regarding shias, Unko tau chor hi do!!! So my bad, and there is no shame in accepting, but goldenhawk i agree i was fooled by your unity and knowing the truth ****!! Now im outta here