Living in the West : Dress code issue in the job

**Salman_Hanafi** · 14-11-2011, 06:53 AM

do you say this for the muslims settled in UK or is this highly optimistic observation/anaylsis meant for the muslims in general?

**London786** · 14-11-2011, 06:55 AM

It is not all dark and gloomy like nomadic is making out and even if this is the case then there is a greater chance of more reward and increasing one's rank in the hereafter. Bro seriously who is your shaykh in taswuff?

**London786** · 14-11-2011, 06:57 AM

bro Salman I can gurantee you that the Muslims of the UK are generally more observant than their counterparts in most parts of the world. The muslims of the UK are generally the most practicing muslims in the whole western world. You must have noticed that most of the posters on this website are from the UK. This shows something. Obviously we have our fair share of problems no doubt but I don't think it's bad as some people are making it. In fact I would say that the average youngster in the UK is more aware of islam than their counterparts in pakistan for example.

**Salman_Hanafi** · 14-11-2011, 07:03 AM

hazrat I have a fair idea about the Muslims in UK and I know that many of them are pracrtising, I have read between the lines while talking to my non-practicing relatives from the UK and it seems that Islam and Islamic scholarship is wellgrounded in the UK...I was merely asking brother nomadic whether he believes this about all the muslim communities of the world in general and I did not mean to agree with him at even if it is just about the UK

**Nomadic** · 14-11-2011, 07:39 AM

There is no shaikh of tassawuf where I live for me to be under his guidance.
you have failed to realise one point is that it is the third generation defines or a turning point for a community.
It is irrlevent to think just because there is more awareness or some sort, it will uplift a community. There is a clear dissconct between the actualisation of relegion and theoratical ones.
It is easy to say because we are more 'practicing' is somehow paint a picture of a community without any real danger. None is denying we in general are more learned! Thats not the point!
A simple litmus test will prove my points: devorce rate, unmarried muslimah, dissatisfaction with relegion after running out zeal, reffering to back home ideological take on relegion and most underlying all these no concerted effort in building community institutes or avenues, the rise of psduo scholars and psudo intelectual and leaders completely oblivious to socio-political and relegious upheavle.
To a great extent the only sustainable community is Murabit - highly interdependent economically, socially, relegiously!
Not like us asian who are seen in mosque only but no futher meaningful contact beside some occoasial event. This immigrant (3rd generation ) is not pure but can't shake of the old model which in reality only worked for 1st/2nd generation. Hence the likes of Tariq Ramadhan makes sense. This is not to say all is ok with his views but lack of critical analysis and solution is not being applied instead rely merley on slogan culture and obsession with hijab, thoab, Aqaid related issue.
I think this is common unless you live in some parts of the world where their is extreme poverty where the focus is primarily on meeting ends meet.
Allahualam

**Abu Marwan** · 14-11-2011, 10:05 AM

Assalamu alaikum,

London786 suggests that since a majority of SF active posters appear to be from the UK, then UK Muslims must be more observant than Muslims in other Western countries. This is a startling conclusion.

I have also noticed that many posters here are from the UK. The demographics seem to be more narrow than even that. It seems that this forum is popular with a fairly narrow section of the UK Muslim community. There are probably several reasons for this: recurrent Deobandi / Brelvi contentions may dissuade people who are not interested in Pakistani and Indian controversies; a tendency toward hate speech and takfir - no doubt imported from Pakistan - ensures that many who come leave immediately. Pious posturing of various description (and I realize that this is also a cultural trait of some communities) could chase even more away.

So, it's difficult to see how SF could be a reliable measure of religious commitment among Western Muslims.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

**Abu Marwan** · 14-11-2011, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Nomadic

Bismillah
A while ago I posted something like this and was informed that I'm being pessimistic. I see there is clear split within muslim and soon to be ex muslilm community.

You raise a lot of interesting points here and I'm sure there are many who agree with much of what you've said. The most important thing you mention is the culture of inferiority that moves people to value what Islam does not value. Western culture, of course, celebrates itself and presents itself as the highest achievement of humanity on the planet. This is normal and we can understand why it is, but we can also see these things from a place that may be hidden from them.

Western ideals focus on a number of things: the primacy of science; tolerance; equality of race; equality of sex. There are reasons why they focus on these things and these reasons may be unexpected if you do not understand the history and culture of these people, rooted in an ancient world that still lives among them even now.

It may be useful to begin with social equality - the liberation of women and the conscious opposition to racism. Western people are very concerned about defending the rights of women and they are quick to measure their own achievements in this regard against those of lesser peoples. This is primarily because women are almost universally reviled in the West. There is a legal infrastructure to support them, and without the coercive power of the state behind them, women would have no chance of achieving anything at all. Western society continues to deprecate women and to regard them as little more than vapid ornaments, useful only for the amusement of men.

Racism, is similarly a central concern because these cultures are fundamentally and irrevocably racist. You do not simply sweep away 2000 years of racial hubris by enacting a law. They are very aggressive in defending the rights of minorities because without this, minorities would be where they have always been.

Foreigners in Europe have never fared very well. For example, revisionist historians and their Zionist friends have succeeded in presenting the Holocaust as a once off freakish accident of nationalist ideology gone bad in the hands of an insane ruler, but this is very far from the case. The wholesale murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940s was only the most recent of this type of event in Western history. Western genocidal violence has had many targets but in Europe it had been most frequently directed against Jews and that for almost two millennium. In North America, state policy directed the annihilation of the native Americans without EVER questioning the moral or ethical implications of this policy. It simply did not occur to them that state directed genocide might be objectionable. They have not changed. They continue to support this type of policy in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan... where ever they happen to appear - defending their values to a tee.

Westerners are also concerned with tolerance because they have no history of this either. Throughout their own history, they have hacked and murdered their way back and forth across Europe and the Middle East killing anyone who disagreed with them, and since they never agreed about anything in the first place there was never a shortage of people to chop up into bits, to fuel their bonfires, or to rape and pillage. While they were confined to Europe by their own poverty and ignorance, they did this to one another. When they spilled out of Europe they took their mayhem with them. They outdid even the Mongols.

And as for science, they put their faith in that because they have never had anything even remotely resembling religious faith. They worshiped just about anything imaginable - rocks and trees and stars and forest spirits. They worshiped jinn and the worshiped the dead. They were compelled by Rome to accept Christianity when Rome saw in this a final means of controlling them, but they did not believe even that. They rose up and murdered the pious among them, time after time, never abandoning their primordial superstition and fear. Now they believe only in science, but they imbue even that with crazy mystic hope. The astrologers chart and the fortune cookie can still strike terror in their hearts.

So, Muslims who see in all of this some superior system are being duped big time. We are told that we ought to think critically, and that is right. We ought to think critically first about what they are offering us instead of Islam and when they come to tell us about freedom, and liberty, and human dignity we should be able to respond intelligently to say we have all of that for 14 centuries past and we can teach them something about it if they are interested... but they are not.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

**janaveronikazahra** · 14-11-2011, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Abu Marwan

You raise a lot of interesting points here and I'm sure there are many who agree with much of what you've said. The most important thing you mention is the culture of inferiority that moves people to value what Islam does not value. Western culture, of course, celebrates itself and presents itself as the highest achievement of humanity on the planet. This is normal and we can understand why it is, but we can also see these things from a place that may be hidden from them.

Western ideals focus on a number of things: the primacy of science; tolerance; equality of race; equality of sex. There are reasons why they focus on these things and these reasons may be unexpected if you do not understand the history and culture of these people, rooted in an ancient world that still lives among them even now.

It may be useful to begin with social equality - the liberation of women and the conscious opposition to racism. Western people are very concerned about defending the rights of women and they are quick to measure their own achievements in this regard against those of lesser peoples. This is primarily because women are almost universally reviled in the West. There is a legal infrastructure to support them, and without the coercive power of the state behind them, women would have no chance of achieving anything at all. Western society continues to deprecate women and to regard them as little more than vapid ornaments, useful only for the amusement of men.

Racism, is similarly a central concern because these cultures are fundamentally and irrevocably racist. You do not simply sweep away 2000 years of racial hubris by enacting a law. They are very aggressive in defending the rights of minorities because without this, minorities would be where they have always been.

Foreigners in Europe have never fared very well. For example, revisionist historians and their Zionist friends have succeeded in presenting the Holocaust as a once off freakish accident of nationalist ideology gone bad in the hands of an insane ruler, but this is very far from the case. The wholesale murder of Jews in Europe in the 1940s was only the most recent of this type of event in Western history. Western genocidal violence has had many targets but in Europe it had been most frequently directed against Jews and that for almost two millennium. In North America, state policy directed the annihilation of the native Americans without EVER questioning the moral or ethical implications of this policy. It simply did not occur to them that state directed genocide might be objectionable. They have not changed. They continue to support this type of policy in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan... where ever they happen to appear - defending their values to a tee.

Westerners are also concerned with tolerance because they have no history of this either. Throughout their own history, they have hacked and murdered their way back and forth across Europe and the Middle East killing anyone who disagreed with them, and since they never agreed about anything in the first place there was never a shortage of people to chop up into bits, to fuel their bonfires, or to rape and pillage. While they were confined to Europe by their own poverty and ignorance, they did this to one another. When they spilled out of Europe they took their mayhem with them. They outdid even the Mongols.

And as for science, they put their faith in that because they have never had anything even remotely resembling religious faith. They worshiped just about anything imaginable - rocks and trees and stars and forest spirits. They worshiped jinn and the worshiped the dead. They were compelled by Rome to accept Christianity when Rome saw in this a final means of controlling them, but they did not believe even that. They rose up and murdered the pious among them, time after time, never abandoning their primordial superstition and fear. Now they believe only in science, but they imbue even that with crazy mystic hope. The astrologers chart and the fortune cookie can still strike terror in their hearts.

So, Muslims who see in all of this some superior system are being duped big time. We are told that we ought to think critically, and that is right. We ought to think critically first about what they are offering us instead of Islam and when they come to tell us about freedom, and liberty, and human dignity we should be able to respond intelligently to say we have all of that for 14 centuries past and we can teach them something about it if they are interested... but they are not.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan

salam alikum,
great reply i think,
in short - they figth for equality, science, against rasism etc ... as they have problem with those values.
Then - step two - they suppose that all others have the same problems (prejudices) therfore they fight against muslims and islam to impose their rules (which they think are the best).

w salam

**Abu Marwan** · 14-11-2011, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by janaveronikazahra

salam alikum,
great reply i think,
in short - they figth for equality, science, against rasism etc ... as they have problem with those values.
Then - step two - they suppose that all others have the same problems (prejudices) therfore they fight against muslims and islam to impose their rules (which they think are the best).

w salam

Yes. That's about it. Cultural hubris prevents them from seeing any value in anything outside themselves. Americans actually believe that they invented everything, including the wheel.

There is science behind what I said.

Look at http://www.geert-hofstede.com/

Geert Hosstede is a Dutch social researcher and consultant. His research is in mapping cultural values. At his website compare "Arab World" with "USA" and "UK".

Hosstede postulates five indices: Power Distance; Individualism; Masculinity; Uncertainty Avoidance; and Long Term Orientation.

This is what his Masculinity index returns for "Arab World":

The Masculinity index (MAS), the third highest Hofstede Dimension is 52, only slightly higher than the 50.2 average for all the countries included in the Hofstede MAS Dimension. This would indicate that while women in the Arab World are limited in their rights, it may be due more to Muslim religion rather than a cultural paradigm.

This contradicts popular "wisdom" about the region.

Compare "Arab World," above, to this for the US:

The next highest Hofstede Dimension is Masculinity (MAS) with a ranking of 62, compared with a world average of 50. This indicates the country experiences a higher degree of gender differentiation of roles. The male dominates a significant portion of the society and power structure. This situation generates a female population that becomes more assertive and competitive, with women shifting toward the male role model and away from their female role.

His explanation for this is not correct. He says that low gender role differentiation in the Arab world is despite Islam, not because of it. He is probably affected by popular notions of Islam as essentially misogynist and repeats a facile explanation. As we both know, Islam expanded and regularized women's position in Arab society rather than restricting it.

Salaam,

Abu Marwan