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Thread: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Assalam o alaykum,

    There is nothing posted above that proves Barelwi 'aqidah that Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was outwardly a bashar and in reality a nur. He says on min 3:15 that if you look at Holy Nabi through the binoculars of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), 'your heart will also be illuminated with nur of Muhammad'. Can you tell me what does this mean? Does this mean we will also become literal nur?

    Also are you also implying that Holy Prophet was emitting light? If yes, was this only for that particular occasion or at all times? Was Holy Prophet emitting light at all times so that it was always bright; hence never dark?

    I repeat: "Shaykh Ninowy doesn't say Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is bashar outwardly and his haqiqat is nur." Lets not waste time on ambiguous statements and be fooled by words like nur.
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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by Saad View Post
    Assalam o alaykum,

    There is nothing posted above that proves Barelwi 'aqidah that Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was outwardly a bashar and in reality a nur. He says on min 3:15 that if you look at Holy Nabi through the binoculars of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (may Allah be pleased with him), 'your heart will also be illuminated with nur of Muhammad'. Can you tell me what does this mean? Does this mean we will also become literal nur?

    Also are you also implying that Holy Prophet was emitting light? If yes, was this only for that particular occasion or at all times? Was Holy Prophet emitting light at all times so that it was always bright; hence never dark?

    I repeat: "Shaykh Ninowy doesn't say Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is bashar outwardly and his haqiqat is nur." Lets not waste time on ambiguous statements and be fooled by words like nur.
    I have read one of the books of the Shaykh in which he says that Nur is
    not just Light or Streaming Photons but has a meaning to it which Allah knows,so that should explain why he said that anyone who believes Nur to be Photons is a Kafir...

    I think Shaykh Yahya Al Ninonwy has clearly stated that Prophet(peacce be upon him) being Noori Bashar in this
    video..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHlgH...eature=channel

    Atleast I don't find anything ambigous in his opinion in this
    video..

    Listen 2:20 onwards ....
    Nur could be Nur ul Huda,Nur of Guidance,Nur of illumination and also when Prophet(Salalahu alaih Wa Sallam) entered Al MAdina ,everything in Al Madina was illuminated by him(Sallalahu alaih Wa Sallam)..If you don't believe then tell me What you call madina?..
    Madina Munawarrah...

    Isn't this something more than the Nur of Guidance and more than Bashariyyat? As a Bashar can't illuminate an entire city.

    About the heart being iluminated ,I think it could mean illumination bythe Nur of guidance,as the shaykh says that Nur can be Nur of Guidance but he clearly sas that Prophet(Peace be upon him) is not just the Nur of guidance in the above video..

    In This video he says that Prophet((Peace be upon him) didn't have a Shadow and clearly explains the reason for it.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJymoFZyRiA
    .................


    I am still wating for Aqeeda At Tahaweeyah Lecture,if you could please find
    it for me...


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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by fitnaantivirus View Post
    Isn't this something more than the Nur of Guidance and more than Bashariyyat? As a Bashar can't illuminate an entire city.

    About the heart being iluminated ,I think it could mean illumination bythe Nur of guidance,as the shaykh says that Nur can be Nur of Guidance but he clearly sas that Prophet(Peace be upon him) is not just the Nur of guidance in the above video..
    Assalam o alaykum,

    I asked earlier, "Also are you implying that Holy Prophet was emitting light? If yes, was this only for that particular occasion or at all times? Was Holy Prophet emitting light at all times so that it was always bright; hence never dark?"

    If it is said that Madina was literally illuminated, then it could be a muj’iza from Allah but it doesn’t mean that Holy Nabi was literally emitting light.

    We say, "Prophet did illuminate the city with the light of guidance when he migrated to Madina."

    I repeat: "Shaykh Ninowy doesn't say Holy Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is bashar outwardly and his haqiqat is nur." Can you link me to a video of shaykh where he mentions such belief?

    You still haven't brought forward any proof stating that Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was nur in haqiqat and a bashar only outwardly. This is the main point of difference. If you can't bring forth a statement stating such, then there is no point in continuing with you. Don't bring forth ambiguous statements stating that Nabi was a light.
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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    If you want an unambigouos article by a Arab Scholar I would recommend you to read this article by Shyakh Nuh Keller(Peer of Shaykh Faraz Rabbani)...

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/masudq7.htm

    Finally, in the metaphysic of the Sufis, or at least those whom I have met, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is both the ‘Light of Allah’ and ‘a human being’, and the inability to join between the two aspects is a lack of understanding of the greatness of al-Haqiqa al-Muhammadiyya, the ‘Muhammadan Reality’.


    To gain an idea of their point of departure, we may note that the entire universe has been created by Allah in order that His names and attributes might be manifest, that is, in order that He might be known, for He says,

    "Nor did I create jinn and men, except to worship Me" (Qur’an 51:56).

    (al-Baghawi Mujahid [ibn Jabr al-Makki (d. 104/722)], said this means ‘except to know Me’ which is a sound interpretation, since if He had not created them, they would not have known His existence and His oneness (Ma‘alam al-tanzil, 5.230).

    ..........

    We cannot ever claim to know all of the Prophet’s perfections (Allah bless him and give him peace), only that Allah describes him in His book as ‘light’; while at the same time, he had to be a human being, in order that the Sacred Law could be manifest, and the imperative of obeying it be binding on every human being. And Allah knows best.

    Though the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is the Light of Allah, he is of course a created light. Someone who believes otherwise has made the mistake of the Christians with Jesus (upon whom be peace), or the Hindus with their Avatars. We saw in the discussion at the end of question (5) above that an ascriptive (idafa) construction like Nur Allah does not show that this Nur or ‘Light’ is an attribute of Allah. Rather, the ascriptive construction in this case is a kind called idafa tashrif, or an ‘ascription of ennoblement’, like the title Bayt Allah ‘The House of Allah’ for the Kaaba in Mecca, named this for its nobility, not that Allah lives inside, much less that it is divine attribute. Or like the she-camel that was sent to Thamud, which was called in the Qur’an Naqat Allah ‘The She-Camel of Allah’ as an ascription of ennoblement; namely, because of its inviolability in the Shari‘a of that time—not that it was ridden by Allah, or was a divine attribute.
    Last edited by fitnaantivirus; 02-03-2010 at 02:07 AM.


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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Assalam o alaykum,

    I repeat: You still haven't brought forward any proof stating that Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was nur in haqiqat and a bashar only outwardly. This is the main point of difference.Don't bring forth ambiguous statements stating that our Nabi was a light. If there are no such statements in the books of 'aqidah, then admit so. Otherwise I see no point in continuing any further as we are going in circles.

    And I also asked: "Also are you implying that Holy Prophet was emitting light? If yes, was this only for that particular occasion or at all times? Was Holy Prophet emitting light at all times so that it was always bright; hence never dark?"

    As far as the statement 'light of Allah', then Imam 'Abd al-Hayy Lakhnawi (may Allah have mercy on him) writes,

    الآثار المرفوعة ج:1 ص:41
    ومنها ما يذكرونه في ذكر المولد النبوي أن نور محمد خلق من نور الله بمعنى أن ذاته المقدسة صارت مادة لذاته المنورة وأنه تعالى أخذ قبضة من نوره فخلق من نوره وهذا سفسطة من القول فإن ذات ربنا تبارك وتعالى من أن تكون مادة لغيره وأخذ قبضة من نوره ليس معناه أنه قطع منه جزء فجعله نور نبيه فإنه مستلزم للتجزي وغير ذلك مما يتبعه في ذاته تعالى الله عنه والذي أوقعهم في هذه الورطة الظلماء هو ظاهر رواية عبد الرزاق في مصنفه عن جابر قال قلت يا رسول الله بأبي أنت وأمي أخبرني عن أول شيء خلقه الله قبل الأشياء فقال يا جابر إن الله خلق قبل الأشياء نور نبيك من نوره فجعل ذلك النور يدور بالقدرة حيث شاء الله ولم يكن في ذلك الوقت لوح ولا قلم ولا جنة ولا نار ولا ملك ولا سماء ولا أرض ولا شمس ولا قمر ولا جني ولا إنس الحديث المذكور بتمامه في المواهب اللدنية وغيره وقد أخطأوا في فهم المراد النبوي ولم يعلموا أن الإضافة في قوله من نوره كالإضافة في قوله تعالى في قصة خلق آدم ونفخت فيه من روحي وكقوله تعالى من قصة سيدنا عيسى وروح منه وكقولهم بيت الله الكعبة والمساجد وقولهم روح الله لعيسى وغير ذلك قال الزرقاني في شرح المواهب عند شرح قوله من نوره إضافة تشريف وإشعار بأنه خلق عجيب وأن له شأنا له مناسبة ما إلى الحضرة الربوبية على حد قوله تعالى ونفخ فيه من روحه وهي بيانية أي من نور هو ذاته لا بمعنى أنها مادة خلق نوره بل بمعنى تعلق الإرادة به بلا واسطه شيء في وجوده انتهى

    “One of them [fabrications] is what they mention in functions held on the occasion of the Prophet’s birth that the nur (light) of Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace) was created out of the light of Allah i.e. Allah’s Holy Self was the substance of his illuminated existence and Allah picked up a handful of His light and created him with the same. This is sophism, as our Lord Most High is far away from being substance for anyone. As far as taking handful of His light is concerned, it does not mean that He separated a part and made the light of His prophet out of the same; since it will require fragmentation and so many other things which will follow as a result about Allah Most High. They fell in this dark whirlwind due to the outer meaning of the tradition narrated by ‘Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf from Sayyiduna Jabir (may Allah be pleased with him) as he said: "Let my father and mother be sacrificed for you, please tell me about the first thing Allah created. He replied: 'O Jabir! Allah created the light of your Prophet before every thing out of His light and He made this light travel to anywhere He likes. There was no Tablet, no Pen, not even Jannah and Jahannam, angel, sky and earth, sun and moon and no jinn and human'.” The complete hadith is mentioned in Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah and other books. They have mistaken in understanding the message conveyed by the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and they did not think that attribution in the phrase ‘out of His light’ is just like the attribution made in the story of Adam’s creation as He said: “I breath My spirit into him” and as He said about the Prophet Isa (may the peace of Allah be upon him): “a spirit proceeding from Him” as people say: “Ka’bah and mosques are Allah’s house” and as they call Prophet Isa as “Sprit of Allah” and so on. Al-Zurqani says in the commentary of al-Mawahib while explaining the phrase ‘out of His light’ that the attribution is just for the sake of honor as an indication that the creation was wonderful event and he has such a loftiness in the Court of the Lord as it was said: “I breath My spirit into him” i.e. out of Light which is His Self not that it was the substance of prophet’s creation rather it only means direct relation of His will with him in his existence.”

    (Al-Aathar al-Marfu’ah, 1:41)
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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Unambigous Proof of this Aqida from Deobandi Peer Zulfiqar Naqshbandi's book

    http://www.tasawwuf.org/writings/lov...nce_loving.pdf
    Page 5



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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Assalam o alaykum,

    You have refused to answer questions posed to you. That is fine as I knew there would be no answer. There is no proof to establish that reality (haqiqat) of Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and hive him peace) was not bashar. Now if you don't concur with your top 'ulama and do believe that Holy Messenger was bashar in reality (haqiqat) then our differences on this particular issue are very minimal.

    Last post clearly shows desperation as you have started to post anything that comes your way without proper understanding. Why do Barlewis always resort to poetry, as their last weapon, to establish or refute 'aqaid? I didn't know poetry can be considered 'unambiguous' proof. Lastly, scholars of Deoband have clearly mentioned that by the statement, 'Allah created the light of your Prophet before every thing' it means ruh (soul) of Holy Messenger. For this you might want to see this thread.

    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...-Allah-created
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  10. #38
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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mehr Ali

    Assalam o alaykum,

    Even though there was no further need for a clarification about the poetry posted from Shaykh Zulfiqar's website but I thought it would still be a good idea as Barelwis are troublemakers and love to confuse the masses.

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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mahr Ali

    Quote Originally Posted by insufficient View Post


    If so, is this not the logic of Shaytaan? Did Iblis not believe himself to be better than Adam (AS) because he was made of fire and saw fire to be superior to clay? And is this story not enough to prove this to be a false and baseless rationale? Ie. proving such illogic (that the physical makeup of creation bears relation to such creation's status) clearly false...
    Assalam o alaykum,

    Barelwis believe nur is more superior than bashar. We believe that being a bashar is superior than nur [angels are made of nur] or fire [jinns are made of fire]. Shaytan refused to prostrate to Sayyiduna Adam (may the peace of Allah be upon him) because he looked down on bashar and he thought that I am superior since I am created out of fire.

    Angels accepted the superiority of bashar over nur and prostrated to Sayyiduna Adam.
    Shaytan didn't accept the superiority of bashar and refused to prostrate.

    Now which camp do Barelwis belong to?

    Now look at Barelwi reasoning, using the Creator to prove that nur of the creation is superior, in the words of Molwi Muhammad ‘Umar Icharwi,

    “…So we have to accept that Allah is nur [light], and Holy Messenger went towards the nur [during Mi’raj], so now what is more superior, nur or bashar? We have to accept that Holy Messenger was a nur and went towards the nur of Allah. Nur [Nabi] went to meet nur [Allah]. So the status of nur will be higher…”

    His analogy might have been correct if it was said that Allah is physical nur. If this is not the case, then his analogy is false because they believe Prophet is physical nur [light].

    Scan from Miqyas-i-Nur,

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    Default Re: Bashariyyat of Holy Messenger - Pir Mahr Ali

    Assalam o alaykum,

    Molwi Muhammad ‘Umar Icharwi writes under this hadith mentioned in Sahih Bukhari,

    “The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain.”

    “It becomes evident from these hadiths that Holy Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) was a superior nur and moon was a nur of a lesser degree. Superior nur split the lesser nur into pieces. This power of Holy Messenger is contradictory [at odds] with haqiqat Bashariyyah. And thus it is proven that haqiqat (reality) of Holy Messenger was NOT bashari (human) but it was pure nur.”

    Scan from Miqyas-i-Nur,


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