Should we equate Twelver Shias with the term "Rawafid"

[DefendingIslam]

Salam Alaykum,

I had mentioned in one of the threads regarding the confusion that may arise when one uses the term "Rafidhi" to describe modern-day Twelver Shias.

I personally think that even some of the 'Ulama are not well-versed with what the beliefs of the Twelver Shias are in reality. For example, Daruliftaa.com says that there are two types of Shias and explains it thus:

a) Those who hold beliefs that constitute disbelief (kufr), such as having the belief that the Qur’an has been altered, Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) is God, the angel Jibril made an error in descending with the revelation on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rather than Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him), accusing Sayyida Ai’isha (Allah be pleased with her) of committing adultery or denying the Companionship (suhba) of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him).

b) Those who do not hold beliefs that constitute Kufr, such as believing that Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) was the rightful first Caliph after the demise of the Messenger of Allah, belief in the twelve Imams, etc…

Such Shi’as cannot be termed as out of the fold of Islam, rather they are considered to be severely deviated and transgressors (fisq).

Now the problem with this approach is:

In the first instance discussed, none of the points mentioned above would be accepted by modern-day Twelver Shias as being part of their religion. The Twelver Shias would accept that they are the second type of Shias discussed, so apparently the problem would be solved and they are considered as Muslims.

However, the Mufti did not mention that Twelver Shias hold onto other types of repugnant beliefs that make them not only "Rafidhis" but also "Ghulat", extremist heretics, no different from lunatics such as those from the "Nation of Islam", "Qadianis", etc.

For example, let us suppose that saying that Ali (Radhia Allahu Anhu) was the rightful Khaliph is not Kufr. Also, let us suppose that saying that those who took the Khilaphah from him wronged him is not Kufr again. However, what about holding onto the belief that whoever was responsible for denying the Khilaphah to Ali (Radhia Allahu Anhu) is a disbeliever, since this would include the most senior of the Sahabah, whose Islam and whose entrance to Paradise is accepted without disagreement? According to the scholars of Aqeedah, what is the situation of such a person?

Let us move on. Regarding the Qur'an, almost no Twelver Shia will openly say that the Quran has been tampered with. However, they they do not consider the soundness of the text of the Quran nor the soundness of its arrangement to be essential parts of their religion, meaning that a person can hypothetically hold on to the view that distortion has occured in the Qur'an and still be a Twelver Shia. I want to ask the 'Ulama or those who have access to 'Aalims, can a person who holds that the soundness of the Quran and its arrangement is not part of their religion be considered a Muslim?

Let us move on again. The fatwa says that it is not Kufr to believe in 12 Imams. However, what happens when the person believes that these twelve Imams are higher in status to almost all the Prophets? Ok, let us suppose that the Shia does not himself believe that, but considers that this is a matter of Ijtihad, that there are narrations that according to him may lead the Shia to believe one way or the other without the person exiting the Twelver Shia religion. Again I need to ask, what do our 'Ulama make of this belief, is it within Islam or not?

So these are some of the reasons why I believe that using the term "Rafidhi" is very light when it comes to describing Twelver Shias, because it conjures up in the mind someone who may simply say a mean word or two to the Sahabah, while for the most part holding onto acceptable beliefs. This is definitely not the case with Twelver Shias, as their beliefs are terrifyingly horrible and repugnant.

[Ahmad_shakeel]

u raised interesting point

[TripolySunni]

Salam Alaykum,

I had mentioned in one of the threads regarding the confusion that may arise when one uses the term "Rafidhi" to describe modern-day Twelver Shias.

I personally think that even some of the 'Ulama are not well-versed with what the beliefs of the Twelver Shias are in reality. For example, Daruliftaa.com says that there are two types of Shias and explains it thus:

a) Those who hold beliefs that constitute disbelief (kufr), such as having the belief that the Qur’an has been altered, Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) is God, the angel Jibril made an error in descending with the revelation on the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) rather than Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him), accusing Sayyida Ai’isha (Allah be pleased with her) of committing adultery or denying the Companionship (suhba) of Sayyiduna Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him).

b) Those who do not hold beliefs that constitute Kufr, such as believing that Sayyiduna Ali (Allah be pleased with him) was the rightful first Caliph after the demise of the Messenger of Allah, belief in the twelve Imams, etc…

Such Shi’as cannot be termed as out of the fold of Islam, rather they are considered to be severely deviated and transgressors (fisq).

Now the problem with this approach is:

In the first instance discussed, none of the points mentioned above would be accepted by modern-day Twelver Shias as being part of their religion. The Twelver Shias would accept that they are the second type of Shias discussed, so apparently the problem would be solved and they are considered as Muslims.

However, the Mufti did not mention that Twelver Shias hold onto other types of repugnant beliefs that make them not only "Rafidhis" but also "Ghulat", extremist heretics, no different from lunatics such as those from the "Nation of Islam", "Qadianis", etc.

For example, let us suppose that saying that Ali (Radhia Allahu Anhu) was the rightful Khaliph is not Kufr. Also, let us suppose that saying that those who took the Khilaphah from him wronged him is not Kufr again. However, what about holding onto the belief that whoever was responsible for denying the Khilaphah to Ali (Radhia Allahu Anhu) is a disbeliever, since this would include the most senior of the Sahabah, whose Islam and whose entrance to Paradise is accepted without disagreement? According to the scholars of Aqeedah, what is the situation of such a person?

Let us move on. Regarding the Qur'an, almost no Twelver Shia will openly say that the Quran has been tampered with. However, they they do not consider the soundness of the text of the Quran nor the soundness of its arrangement to be essential parts of their religion, meaning that a person can hypothetically hold on to the view that distortion has occured in the Qur'an and still be a Twelver Shia. I want to ask the 'Ulama or those who have access to 'Aalims, can a person who holds that the soundness of the Quran and its arrangement is not part of their religion be considered a Muslim?

Let us move on again. The fatwa says that it is not Kufr to believe in 12 Imams. However, what happens when the person believes that these twelve Imams are higher in status to almost all the Prophets? Ok, let us suppose that the Shia does not himself believe that, but considers that this is a matter of Ijtihad, that there are narrations that according to him may lead the Shia to believe one way or the other without the person exiting the Twelver Shia religion. Again I need to ask, what do our 'Ulama make of this belief, is it within Islam or not?

So these are some of the reasons why I believe that using the term "Rafidhi" is very light when it comes to describing Twelver Shias, because it conjures up in the mind someone who may simply say a mean word or two to the Sahabah, while for the most part holding onto acceptable beliefs. This is definitely not the case with Twelver Shias, as their beliefs are terrifyingly horrible and repugnant.

The first type of Shias:

Ali is a God?
answer: Go to iran and see for yourself how many worship him, They worship him THUS HE IS A GOD.

Quran is altered?
Answer: many Classical shiite scholars (FAMOUS ONES) have the belief the Quran has verses removed from it ect... the majority of Shiite scholars believed the verses of the Quran were not placed in proper order (Like verse of Tatheer 33:33).

Gabriel made a mistake?
Answer: i haven't met anyone with such belief, But I do know many of them believe The Imams to be greater than prophets, I just listened yesterday to a sermon by one of their most famous Iraqi scholars "Al Falee" .
If I recall he was saying:" Some "Sunni" made a Nuthur to Allah that if he blessed him with two sons he would appoint his son as a policeman who stands near the bridge which connects the pilgrims of Ashura to the grave of hussein RAA and that he would tell his son to stop the pilgrims and block their passage to visit Hussein raa, So it happened and the boy became a police man and he went to the bridge and started attacking the pilgrims to hussein's grave in ashura (LOL one man against thousands) as he beat them with a stick, then an IRANIAN shia said that he was going to ask hussein to take revenge on this Man so he went to his grave and asked him for this.
The Police Man then had a dream on that night that he was being dragged to hell with the rest of the companions ect... then as the angels were about to throw him in it they heard a voice come from heaven, it said "Take him out of It!" the angels recognized the voice and said O Abu Abdullah (Hussein) why? this man is a Nasibi? The Imam Said " But he has the dust of the pilgrims of Karbala on his clothes".... When he awoke from the dream he said "I have made a Mistake" "Allahummma Salli Ala Muhamad wa AAAALLLEEEEeeee Muhammadd!"

As you can see a Sunni Nasibi Man with some dust of Karbala on his clothes is saved from hellfire whereas The companions buried in the same Place as the Prophet PBUH are dragged into hellfire...

accusing Aisha of Adultery?
answer: They hate her guts and wouldn't mind calling her names when ever they could.

Salam aleykum,

[DefendingIslam]

^

Brother TripolySunni,

I am trying to focus on the matters where Shia scholars and laymen admit their beliefs. That is why I totally left out the parts about whether they believe in the divinity of Ali or the like, since no Twelver Shia will say that this is what they do. Perhaps they may judged on the Day of Resurrection as having been guilty of some other horrible sins, but that is not for us to say.

So this is why I concentrted on matters such as the arrangement of the Verses of the Quran, or the status of Imams over Prophets, things that the Twelvers will say openly, or which are at least difficult for them to deny.