Ash'arees and the Quran: Clarification Needed!

[Abu_Dahdah]

Assalamu Alaikum,

Recently, I just finished reading a book called ''An Introduction to the Sciences of the Quran'' by Shaykh Yasir Qadhi. MashAllah it was very beneficial. However, he devotes a whole chapter to ''A Refutation of the Ash'arees''. He quotes Al Ghazali as saying ''Allah speaks without words, sounds and letters...'' and later on poses the question: ''Where did the Quran that is present amongst us originate from? and what, then, is the Arabic Quran, with its words and letters?'' He also says ''The internal kalaam of Allah, according to them (Ash'arees), is not created, but the Quran, since it is only an expression of the internal kalaam, and not the actual kalaam of Allah, must be created.''

After reading through this section, I had quite a few doubts about the nature of Ash'aree aqeedah (only on this issue of kalamullah, not other issues such as istiwa/sifaat etc.)

Is it the case that Ash'arees believe that the Quran was in essence not Arabic but for the comprehension of humankind and to prove its miraculous nature, it was revealed in clear Arabic? I.e. Allah did not speak in the Arabic language when the Quran was being revealed? (We all affirm that He is far above being restricted to one/any language)

Could one of the brothers please explain and help me clear these doubts about ash'aree aqeedah? Jazak Allah Khair!

[Dhul-Qarnayn]

http://sunnianswers.wordpress.com/20...ute-of-speech/

[Abu_Dahdah]

Jazak Allah Khair! A very concise presentation on the Ash'aree position. After considering both positions, I guess the best way for laymen is to follow the way of the salaf: ''Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah. Period'' and not delve into ''Whether it has sound, letters, etc.''

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Jazak Allah Khair! A very concise presentation on the Ash'aree position. After considering both positions, I guess the best way for laymen is to follow the way of the salaf: ''Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah. Period'' and not delve into ''Whether it has sound, letters, etc.''

How did you come to the conlusion that salaf stopped before "delving into whether it has sound or letters"?

[maneatinglizard]

Well, Imam Abu Hanifa did take a position, did he not?

The Qur'an is the Word of God Almighty, written on collections of leaves (masahif), preserved in men's hearts, recited on men's tongues, and sent down to the Prophet, upon whom be God's peace and blessings. Our uttering of the Qur'an is created, and our recitation of the Qur'an is created, but the Qur'an itself is uncreated.

That which God Almighty mentions in the Qur'an as a narration from Moses and other of the prophets - peace and blessings be upon them - and also from the Pharaoh and Iblis, all of it is God's word, and constitutes a report concerning them. God's word is uncreated. It is the Qur'an which as the word of God Most High is uncreated, not their words, Moses, upon whom be peace, heard the Word of God Almighty, as God Almighty says: "God addressed Moses in speech." Thus God Almighty was the speaker, and Moses, upon whom be peace, did not speak. God Most High was a creator in pre-eternity, even without having brought creation into existence: "there is naught like unto Him; He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing." When God addressed Moses He did so with His word that was, like all of His attributes, an attribute existing from pre-eternity, unlike the attributes of created beings.

God knows, but not as we know; He has power, but not as we have power; He sees, but not as we see; He hears, but not as we hear; and He speaks, but not as we speak. We speak by means of the speech organs and sounds, whereas God Most High speaks with neither organs nor sounds. Sounds are created, and the word of God Most High is uncreated.

[Abu_Dahdah]

Salaam!

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ust_abd/speech_word.htm

I am just paraphrasing from this article. After commenting on the various positions on this issue, Imam Ibn Hajr states in Fath-ul-Bari: ''And resulting from the extreme confusion that happened in the issue, the Salaf’s prohibition against indulging in it happened much. And they found it sufficient to believe that the Qur’ān is Allah’s word uncreated (al-Qur’ān kalām Allah ghayru makhlūq). And they didn’t add anything to that. And it is the safest of all views. And Allah is the One sought for aid.”

In addition, the last paragraph states: So it becomes clear that the true position of the Salaf was to limit themselves to saying, ‘The Qur’an is Allah’s word uncreated.’ As for stating that they are composed of letters and sounds or not, this was a later development in Islamic history. So it is sufficient for one to limit his/her statements to the same that the Salaf limited themselves to. I am not sure if this is Ibn Hajr's wording or a commentary by the author of the article, Shaykh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali.

These issues are best left to theologians and not laymen. Thus, I find it more beneficial (for myself) to stop indulging in these issues and concentrate on perfecting my salah, implementing the sunnah, doing my dhikr, birr-ul-walidayn etc. etc. Jazak Allah to the brothers for clarifying.

[BrotherOfIlm]

Good luck explaining to Abu Zakariyya that Allaah is not bound by the limitations of the creations such as sound and letters.

He will come back with a "statement" from Imam Ahmad RadiAllaahu ^anhu, which is a fabrication against him and then follow up by stating he ONLY follows the Salaf and then quote Ibn Qudama, who isnt even from the Salaf Assaaliheen.

May Allaah guide us from those who attribute Allaah the same as those attributed to the creation.

I seek refuge from such ill beliefs.

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Well, Imam Abu Hanifa did take a position, did he not?

The statement that you brought in the first paragraph has to be explained and understood, Do you mean by saying the uttering of the Qur’an meaning our uttering is created or that which exits from out mouth is created? Do you mean by saying the recitation is created by it to be that our bodies, mouths, ability to speak is created or that that Qur’an is created that exits from it?
If you mean by it that WE are created then yes we are, but that which is uttered(apart from our being) is not created, and the Qur’an whether recited or read or pronounced is not created. That’s why some of the people of knowledge said that the sound that exits from the person is the sound of that person, but the speech itself is the speech of Allah”
So with that being said and reading the rest of your statement I would have to say that this statement goes against the Madhab of the Hanabila and goes against the basic understanding of the Salaf in the Issue of kalam, so that means to me that this statement itself is doubtful to have been made by the person that it has been claimed to be have made by
The school of Imam Ahmad ostentatiously opposes this view 100 percent to the point where he himself has been recorded to have called the one who has said this a Mubtadi’ . One such statement is found in “Usool a sunnah” which translated goes something like this “Whoever said that the utterance or other then that is considered to be created, or he stops and does not say anything or says he doesn’t know whether or not those things are created, then he is the close companion of innovation like the one who says that they are created, because verily it(the lafdh,etc) is the speech of Allah uncreated.” Which is point 15 of that book.
Not to mention Luma’tul ‘itiqad clearly says that the Qur’an is recited by the tongue, kept in the heart, heard by the ears, and written in the Mushaf”
Ibn abi dawud says in his mandhoma " You shouldn’t say that the Quran is created when read” “Indeed it is the speech of Allah pronounced clearly”
Abi Ya’la in his kitaab at’itiqaad says in summary “whether the Qur’an is written, recited, read, it is the speech of Allah uncreated in every situation and from every direction it is always the speech of Allah uncreated”
Not to mention the numerous pages of Safaraani’s sharh of his Mandhooma in which he repeats the same argument.
Also, Much of which can be found in the book “Nihaayatoon al mubtadeeen fi Usool aldeen” which is a compilation of some of the different sayings of the Hanabila on issues of belief, in which they continuously repeat the same argument.
Let’s just say that the over whelming evidence from the Madhab of Imam ahmad was that the Qur’an in any situation is uncreated, the speech of Allah.

But lets forget that and move directly to the Qur’an and Sunnah and sayings of the Salaf.
Allah says “Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid." 18:109
Allah says “A.L.R. These are the symbols (or Verses) of the perspicuous Book. We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an, in order that ye may learn wisdom.” 12:1-2
Allah says “And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy” 6:155
Allah says “Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!” 72:2
Allah does not resemble his creation at all as we know, however he speaks how he wills without the need for anything from the creation, because nothing is like him. So if you say well Allah needs a mouth, voice box, etc to speak then I say Allah does not need anything from amongst the creation and he does not resemble them at all, just as he has the ability to make mankind speak without the need for any of the above mentioned “parts”, Allah says “That Day shall We set a seal on their mouths. But their hands will speak to us, and their feet bear witness, to all that they did.” 36:65…
Truly Allah is high above resembling his creation in the least, but he speaks and is heard however he wills.
Allah says,“A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand”41:3
Why’s it written?.... Because Allah said “Nay! This is a Glorious Quran, (Inscribed) in a Tablet Preserved! “ 85:21-22

As for the the Qur’an being comprised of letters, The prophet said in the well-known hadith that Whoever reads the Qur’an will get 10 reward for every LETTER, I don’t say that Alif lam meem is a letter but rather, Alif is a letter…. Etc”
Likewise that which was narrated in abi dawud, the prophet said “: Beautify the Qur'an with your voices”
And from a statement of Ali, which says “Learn Surah al Baqara, because for every letter (harf) from it is a good deed, and 10 like it” Saheeh akhraja Abo Qasim asbaahani.
And in the book “khalq af’alul ibaad” by Bukhari, 95 which says, Asma the daughter of Abu bakr said, when the Qur’an was heard she said “Speech of my lord, speech of my lord” Sanad is saheeh from alkhalaal in his sunnah, and other than that from alhaakim and atabarani… actually the whole book goes through saying after saying after saying confirming the same thing.
So for me there is over whelming statements by ALL of the salaf, and from the understanding of the Qur’an and Sunnah itself that point to the fact that the Qur’an is written, is heard, is the speech of Allah, and is uncreated. It is not possible to take a statement of one person(without being sure it was him who said it) and then leave the rest of the scholars, and words of the salaf knowing that the statement opposes the rest of his contemporaries and likewise opposes what has been previously mentioned and other than that from the authentic sources.
So to me it is not possible that he said it.

[BrotherOfIlm]

Laa Hawla Walaa Quwwata Illaa Billaah. With what you did in regards to the quote of the great Imam Abu Hanifah, and "explained it" I can do the same to your own very quotes which you listed and turn it around to the majority view of this Ummaah and scholars within.

Either way Abu Zakariyya, the break down of this is you are either on one of 2 sides;

1: Allaah does not resemble the creation and therefore it is impossible to think we are able to speak the same as Allaah is attrbiuted with Kalaam. Therefore, Allaah does not speak with sounds and letters due to the very sound proofs that a creation is something that changes, starts/stops, was created for our use etc and verily, Allaah is clear of such attributes

2: The Qur'an is made up of letters and sounds, there fore Allaah's Kalaam is the same as the creations, as we (humans) are able to pronounce what is written with ink in the books and this is also how Allaah's Kalaam is, na^outhibillaah.

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Good luck explaining to Abu Zakariyya that Allaah is not bound by the limitations of the creations such as sound and letters.

He will come back with a "statement" from Imam Ahmad RadiAllaahu ^anhu, which is a fabrication against him and then follow up by stating he ONLY follows the Salaf and then quote Ibn Qudama, who isnt even from the Salaf Assaaliheen.

May Allaah guide us from those who attribute Allaah the same as those attributed to the creation.

I seek refuge from such ill beliefs.

Ofcoarse you can't convince me of something when all you are going to do is either use a questionable statement or a statment of the later scholars.... The entire book of Bukhari has sufficient enough proof against anyone claiming what you are claiming. I don't need to qoute ibn Qudama, but you need to stop refering to him as fabricating statements and trying belittle his scholarship. I don't even need statements of the Salaf in general when the Qur'an itself is clear enough, Is it possible that Allah spoke to Musa and made the tree say I am your lord? Who said Alif Lam Meem? Did the Jinn hear the Qur'an or not? Is the Qur'an prescribed in the "lawhul mahfoodh"? Did Allah send down the Qur'an in Arabic language or not? Did the Prophet clearly define the Qur'an as being comprised of letters? Did he say beautify the Qur'an with your voice? Does the hadith of Ibn Masud point to the fact that the Inhabitants of the heavens HEAR the speech of Allah? No one needs ONE statement of the Salaf when the statements of Allah and his messenger are sufficient enough wa lillahil Hamd, but knowing that they do have statements justs fortifies the Argument.