Muslims and Homosexuals. How can we tolerate them?

[Nirvana]

I came across this article by Profesor Tariq Ramadan who teaches at Oxford University. I have heard him speak at events in the past but not very impressed with what he had to say. I see he wrote a new article about the interaction between Muslims and homosexuals in Europe.

He is very clear that homos are sinners and that we can never accept their lifestyle as decent. So he does not ask us to do like Christians have done and just say "yeah it's OK, it is not a sin anymore". But he does say this:

We must avoid condemning or rejecting individuals. It is quite possible to disagree with a person’s behavior (public or private), while respecting that person as an individual. This I have continued to affirm, and gone further still: a person who pronounces the attestation of Islamic faith becomes a Muslim; if that person engages in homosexual practices, no one has the right to drive him or her out of Islam.

http://www.muslimpolitics.com/the-ne...-homosexuality

Can we really think that someone who is practising homosexual liffestyle is still a Muslim? He says we can't drive them out of Islam. But I thought that they have driven themselves out of Islam themselves. I know of someone from a Muslim family who is a homo, and our families know each other for years. He is not ashamed of it and he tells everyone about it. His family rejected him and he does not see them anymore, even though his mother still speaks to him by phone.

This homo, whenever he bumps into me in town, he gives me salam. But I don't give him Salam in return. I don't reject him or ignore or treat him rudely or anything. But I just can't bring myself to give Salam to someone like that. Am I wrong to never return his Salam?

[Lord Nelson]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Nirvana - can you truly claim to be without sin?

FWIW - I do not consider homosexuality to be a sin but as you do I posted the above.

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Nirvana - can you truly claim to be without sin?

FWIW - I do not consider homosexuality to be a sin but as you do I posted the above.

Unfortunetly that tennant goes against the basic belief of Islam, which is to order good and forbid evil EVEN if you are the one doing an evil similar to or worse then the one you are ordering against, this is a means of correcting a society and keeping it steadfast.

[Lord Nelson]

Unfortunetly that tennant goes against the basic belief of Islam, which is to order good and forbid evil EVEN if you are the one doing an evil similar to or worse then the one you are ordering against, this is a means of correcting a society and keeping it steadfast.

You're right. It is unfortunate.

Thank you for your post.

Live and let live...

[umar_italy]

Engaging in homosexual activities is a sin, but it's not kufr nor it takes outside the folds of Islam.

An homosexual Muslim is still a Muslim (although a sinner if he acts on his pulsions), unless he deems homosexuality as fine and lecit in Islam..

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

You're right. It is unfortunate.

Thank you for your post.

Live and let live...

No I meant, unfortunetly YOUR wrong and that tennent goes against Islam, the Islamic version IS the correct one.
Thank you also.

[Lord Nelson]

No I meant, unfortunetly YOUR wrong and that tennent goes against Islam, the Islamic version IS the correct one.
Thank you also.

Abu, where are you based if you don't mind me asking? Is there a legal punishment for homosexuality where you live? If so, what is it? If there isn't, would you introduce a punishment and what would it be?

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Abu, where are you based if you don't mind me asking? Is there a legal punishment for homosexuality where you live? If so, what is it? If there isn't, would you introduce a punishment and what would it be?

I am based in a country that does punish for homsexuality, however it would have to be in a way that is apparent and known for them to be punished for it. However I am originally from the good ole' USA Homoesexuality is unpunished there, and I won't go around punishing them, I just don't like their activities, as many other Americans also don't like it.

[Usama2]

Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

This saying is attributed to Jesus (as), its not LN's personal saying.
And LN expresses typical Christian misunderstanding of that that is attributed to Jesus (as). He was rebutting the Pharisee rabbis/priests who approached him while he was teaching and wanted him to accept their condemnation of the woman who they claimed committed adultery, and therefore stone her based on their claims. But the claim was not verified by upright witnesses who stood their ground. So Jesus (as) turned away from them and waited. And then he said the above quote. But the trap was only set forth by a conniving rabbi/priest, a trap of the hypocrites who were too weak to actually live by the Shariah of Musa (as). And so when they refused to stand their ground as upright witnesses to her adultery as Jesus (as) quote intended, the case against the woman was dropped. In the end, Jesus (as) was stooped on the ground waiting and all the Jews and the rabbis left except the women. So he got up and asked where are the accusers? She said they left, so he said: go and sin no more.

There are many cases like this of the Prophet (saaw) avoiding a verdict and punishment. The Prophet (saaw) turning away from a confession and the confesser moving to face him. And the Prophet (saaw) said: its better for a guilty man go free than a innocent man punished.

But the Christians mistake mercy to mean accept sin. But it doesnt mean the sin is no longer a sin.

In this matter, gay sex and sexual conduct is an evil which spreads by the whispers of Shaytan and the lack of piety and decency of the Ahlil Kitab. And gays spread their evil by making others accept the evil that they do.

The 'homosexual' identity is a fabrication of Western democratic secular dogma and reality.
As the West emulates Greco Roman civilization and ideas by adopting their democracy, so too do they fall into the same systems of life and patterns of behavior.
As they formed republics, so too did these republics grow into empires.
And as they secularized and granted Man the sovereignty to decide right and wrong, good and bad, and all conduct therein, so too did they make riba/interest legal and good, and fornication and adultery and gay sex good, and true piety bad.
And as they engaged in their fahsha and self deification, they chose to anoint those who engaged in gay sex as a special, unique kind of human: homosexual.

But in reality, they were just men like everyone else. Many had wives who became tired of them or wanted different sexual gratification. Still others were sons of power and privilege who engaged in lechery and debauchery and satisfying their every lust. And since few elites have ever wanted to kill their own sons for gay conduct, they tolerated it, and when their numbers grew, they eventually gave them rights and identity: homosexual.

And this human pattern is nearly identical to the conduct of the Greek and Roman civilizations.

We Muslims in the West are in a predicament. We have to uphold Ma`roof and forbid Munkar and must stand with Haqq and stand against Batil. But we are in societies that do just the opposite.

Gay conduct is a major sin. It may be forgivable by Allah (SWT) if the sinner is repentant. But that is a matter for Allah (SWT).
And the one who believes in the rightness of gay conduct and its acceptance in Islam has left Islam, has apostasized.
So for us believers, our PRIMARY OBLIGATION IS TO RESUME THE ISLAMIC STATE AND IMPLEMENT SHARIAH IN ITS TOTALITY FOR THE PLEASURE OF ALLAH AWJ. And from this, spread the message of Islam threw this example. That includes punishing gay conduct.

As evident on this forum, we can debate for 1000s of pages with the disbelievers, but common sense, reasoning, and rational thought are not theirs and never has been.
They have always been jaded, slanted, twisted to satisfy and justify their way of life.
We have to show them through the practice of Islam the Haqq and the Maroof and show them how to be against Munkar and Batil.

So in this light, individually, a Muslim in the West has to measure how to deal with gay men.
One should support Maroof and Haqq whenever the matter is raised, and reject munkar and fahsha.

The disbelievers know that they are hypocrites and that many Christians and religious people are hypocrites, so when a Muslim is proven to be upright and true and pious, even they can appreciate this. But as with any evil, gay men can be known to try to force their evil on others, as the case of the people of Sodom.

And Allah knows best.

[Abu Jahid]

^^



Akhi Usama2 I really like your comments.