Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah

[Mujib]

Have fun calling me a 'dog of hell-fire' or whatever epithet you choose to hurl.

This is strange. You imply that the brother is a kafir ('your religion,' etc.) and then outright call him a mushrik (the moderators should edit your post for you), and now you are the one appealing to pity with the remark above? As though calling someone a mushrik is better than "dog of hell."

The questions upon which the argument you attempt to make are themselves flawed.

If asking for things from dead people was ok, would it be ok to do this in front of a statue of the dead person? You might say 'statues are haram,' but ok, let's say the features are obscured.

What does this prove? Is the place of standing significant or the statue? The argument of your question is premised on another question/point which you have left out. Why would one be in front of the statue in the first place? So you should have asked, is it ok to build statues or give some significance to statues and go to them and stand in front of them? You didn't ask that because the answer is clear. The question you did ask is thus irrelevant. Also, an act does not become haram simply because of its being performed in front of a statue (unless of course one is prostrating). Why mention statue? Why not similarly ask, is it ok to perform istighatha in front of a wall, car, tree, shoes, books, mountain, etc? Again, you don't mention those things, and specify statue because your question is incomplete and leaves out why someone would be in front of a statue in the first place.

This all sounds like an appeal to emotions. It seeks to inspire in readers images or ideas of someone performing an act in front of a statue.

One could ask your question to a practitioner of tawassul (where one does not use the language of calling) also. Is it ok to perform tawassul in front of a statue? The question is useless as an argument in either case.

What is more, what is the reason you cannot ask for things from Wadd or Suwa`? How about Yaghuth, Ya`uq, and Nasr? They were all righteous men from the people of Nuh (alayhi salaam).

These sort of questions never provide an argument. They are only meant to confuse the person being asked.

Similarly one could ask, what is the reason we do not perform tawassul (where one does not use the language of calling) through Ya`uq, Nasr, or Sayyidina `Isa (as)? Why did Sayyidina `Umar (ra) perform tawassul through Sayyidina `Abbas (ra) and not through Sayyidina `Isa (as) or another prophet?

[Jadeed]

This is strange. You imply that the brother is a kafir ('your religion,' etc.) and then outright call him a mushrik (the moderators should edit your post for you), and now you are the one appealing to pity with the remark above? As though calling someone a mushrik is better than "dog of hell."

The questions upon which the argument you attempt to make are themselves flawed.

If you support that, you're also a mushrik, and so is anyone who supports that, and they will all be raised with the Hindus on Qiyamah.

These sort of questions never provide an argument. They are only meant to confuse the person being asked.

Similarly one could ask, what is the reason we do not perform tawassul (where one does not use the language of calling) through Ya`uq, Nasr, or Sayyidina `Isa (as)? Why did Sayyidina `Umar (ra) perform tawassul through Sayyidina `Abbas (ra) and not through Sayyidina `Isa (as) or another prophet?

That's an excellent question. Why don't you? What's your reason for differentiating?

What was Umar's reason for differentiating?

There is no reason to differentiate in the shari'a of his religion except via semantics and obfuscations that all are obscure against the muhkam ayat of the Qur'an that prohibit such acts, and the Sunnah of the Messenger which does not provide a single instance of this form of tawassul.

This is the aathar: "Al-Bukhari recorded from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "...These idols were all named after righteous men from the people of Nuh..."

Salafis have a very simplistic way of looking at things….. They don’t look at things deeply…..They see righteous men (and ignore everything else in the hadith or athar), they are awilya… it is the same things thing the sufis are doing worshipping righteous men…

Note the named after. So the men were 'awliyah Allah from the people of Nuh and there is no clear reason in the Shari'ah of the Barelwi/Lunatic Sufi religion to differentiate between the two except via obfuscating semantics for which no clear proof in any form of anything exists.

I haven’t read the Sharh of this aathar but my guess as to why the Shafi Ulama did not see this as an opposition to istighatha is for a number of reasons….

1. They were idols… meaning people believed them to be gods…. People worshiped them… being that they were idols, they probably made offerings to them like food, flowers, water, sacrifices etc etc.

2. While Muslims believe there is no god but Allah… and only seek the intercession of the awilya as a means… not an end…. Muslims don’t believe the awilya to be gods (the jahaliyya arab did, as evidence by them making idols of them), they don’t worship them… they don’t make offerings and/or sacrifices at their graves.

Ok, so why can't you ask them (the 'awliya of previous nations) for rizq and children? What's your reason for differentiating? If you cannot provide one, what's the difference between you and the Jahili Arabs? Shah Waliullah Dehlavi has quite clearly stated that this is shirk. Will Ibn Hajar Haythami and Shamsuddin Ramili be there to intercede for you on Qiyamah if Shah Waliullah is right and they're wrong?

[UntoldTruth]

Note the named after. So the men were 'awliyah Allah from the people of Nuh and there is no clear reason in the Shari'ah of the Barelwi/Lunatic Sufi religion to differentiate between the two except via obfuscating semantics for which no clear proof in any form of anything exists.



Ok, so why can't you ask them (the 'awliya of previous nations) for rizq and children? What's your reason for differentiating? If you cannot provide one, what's the difference between you and the Jahili Arabs? Shah Waliullah Dehlavi has quite clearly stated that this is shirk. Will Ibn Hajar Haythami and Shamsuddin Ramili be there to intercede for you on Qiyamah if Shah Waliullah is right and they're wrong?

I already explained the difference....

If you don't understand it... there is no reason to continue the discussion... because I already explained why you can't ask them... along with another list as to the difference which you haven't responded to... I don't argue for the sake of arguing...

To make things clear... I don't do istighatha... I am merely defending the Muslims that do...

I don't know who Shah Waliullah Dehlavi is... Who is he?????

And Allah knows best.

[Muhammad_786]

I already explained the difference....

If you don't understand it... there is no reason to continue the discussion... because I already explained why you can't ask them... along with another list as to the difference which you haven't responded to... I don't argue for the sake of arguing...

To make things clear... I don't do istighatha... I am merely defending the Muslims that do...

I don't know who Shah Waliullah Dehlavi is... Who is he?????

And Allah knows best.

He (RH) was a Hanafee Muhaddith from India and highly respected by ulema of all madhabib.

[purana.paapi]

If you support that, you're also a mushrik, and so is anyone who supports that, and they will all be raised with the Hindus on Qiyamah.



That's an excellent question. Why don't you? What's your reason for differentiating?

What was Umar's reason for differentiating?

There is no reason to differentiate in the shari'a of his religion except via semantics and obfuscations that all are obscure against the muhkam ayat of the Qur'an that prohibit such acts, and the Sunnah of the Messenger which does not provide a single instance of this form of tawassul.



Note the named after. So the men were 'awliyah Allah from the people of Nuh and there is no clear reason in the Shari'ah of the Barelwi/Lunatic Sufi religion to differentiate between the two except via obfuscating semantics for which no clear proof in any form of anything exists.



Ok, so why can't you ask them (the 'awliya of previous nations) for rizq and children? What's your reason for differentiating? If you cannot provide one, what's the difference between you and the Jahili Arabs? Shah Waliullah Dehlavi has quite clearly stated that this is shirk. Will Ibn Hajar Haythami and Shamsuddin Ramili be there to intercede for you on Qiyamah if Shah Waliullah is right and they're wrong?

Do u deny using the the Prophet Sallahu alahi wasallam as a wasila while making Dua to ALLAH

[Ahmad_shakeel]

The author of the well-known work I’la’ al-Sunan, `Allamah Zafar Ahmad ‘Uthmani (d.1394 AH), has discussed the issue of istighathah in detail in his treatise Al-Irshad fi Mas’alah al-Istimdad. He has divided istighathah into several categories for a better and a clearer understanding. These categories are:

[a] To call a prophet or a saint (dead or alive) from nearby or at their grave.

[b] To call them from a distant place when the purpose is not to address them directly, such as when their name is called out due to overwhelming [emotion and] rapture of their love [as sometimes done in poetry].

[c] To call them [with the intention of addressing them] and with the belief that they can hear from far.

[d] To call them in their absence, not to address them, [seek aid from them] or due to overwhelming rapture [emotion], but rather as a recitation of a supplication (du’a) which contains their name as being addressed (ba sighah al-nida’).

[The ruling on the above mentioned points:]

[a] It is permissible according to the agreement of the research scholars (muhaqqiqin). This is provided that isti’anat (help) being sought is not haram, [such as] asking those alive for things that are considered umur ghayr `adiyyah[1] (those things that are `adatan -according to natural disposition - or shar’an – as per Shari’ah – outside the power (qudrah) of humans and are not considered their actions – [also referred to as ma fawq al-asbab]) like saying, ‘O shaykh, give me children’.

Or to ask those in the grave for things that are either umur ghayr `adiyyah or things that are considered umur `adiyyah (those things are that `adatan or shar’an within the power of humans and are considered their actions – [also referred to as ma taht al-asbab]) but become umur ghayr `adiyyah after death, like asking for help in a trial, or asking for sustenance, children, rain, cure from disease, etc.

[b] It is permissible.

[c] It is shirk.

[d] It is permissible provided that this supplication (du’a) is present in the Qur’an or hadith, like in tashahhud where `al-salamu `alayka ayyuhannabiy’ is reported with sighah al-khitab. (For more see: Maqalat ‘Uthmani, 2:287-288)

http://barelwism.wordpress.com/2012/...-the-creation/

[Mujib]

If you support that, you're also

I'm sorry - I must have given you the impression that obstinacy would irk me. Save yourself the good works and the time. The point was clear: one shouldn't whine about name-calling if one is engaging in it.

Insulting people online is foolishness and cowardice. In Pashto we refer to such activity as bey-ghirati.

That's an excellent question.

Keep it in mind next time you think of using those arguments.

[Mujib]

The author of the well-known work

Numerous posts from the past have addressed these points, brother. You can find them by searching.

[Sunni_Student786]

After reading some of the posts on this thread, especially those by a particular poster who will here go nameless, my belief that Muslim scholars should find some way of imparting critical thinking/reasoning skills to the masses.

I mean some of the posts just show an absolute lack of even basic logic.

[godilali]

After reading some of the posts on this thread, especially those by a particular poster who will here go nameless, my belief that Muslim scholars should find some way of imparting critical thinking/reasoning skills to the masses.

I mean some of the posts just show an absolute lack of even basic logic.

Welcome to Sunniforum my friend.