Istighathah: Seeking aid from other than Allah

[a mu-min]

Brother Abdusamad, to answer your question of why a person asking for help from the dead would be considered shirk, eventhough in his heart he believes Allah (swt) is the supreme being, the reasoning is we muslims do not know what's in a person's heart nor can we ascentuate sincerity of his intentions. We only judge by whats apparent, (ie the actions of the individual in question). Therefore if a person "claims" he "really" believes only Allah can accept his dua, then he should stop praying to others.

Also this line of reasoning (the use of intercessions) has been attributed to the mushrikeen, the christians, in many verses of the Quran.

In addition, the prophets of Allah (swt) were sent to mankind, not that they make people believe their is a God (Ilah), but that they call to the WORSHIP of the one and only ALLAH. This is the message of Islam, not only to acknowledge Allah's soverignty, but to WORSHIP him alone. This is the essence of Sura Fatiha, and the entire message of Islam.

[UntoldTruth]

Brother Abdusamad, to answer your question of why a person asking for help from the dead would be considered shirk, eventhough in his heart he believes Allah (swt) is the supreme being, the reasoning is we muslims do not know what's in a person's heart nor can we ascentuate sincerity of his intentions. We only judge by whats apparent, (ie the actions of the individual in question). Therefore if a person "claims" he "really" believes only Allah can accept his dua, then he should stop praying to others.

Also this line of reasoning (the use of intercessions) has been attributed to the mushrikeen, the christians, in many verses of the Quran.

In addition, the prophets of Allah (swt) were sent to mankind, not that they make people believe their is a God (Ilah), but that they call to the WORSHIP of the one and only ALLAH. This is the message of Islam, not only to acknowledge Allah's soverignty, but to WORSHIP him alone. This is the essence of Sura Fatiha, and the entire message of Islam.

This reply doesn't answer the question...

We can't see in the heart of the person asking the deaf person either.... and asking a deaf people isn't shirk...

What is the meaning of shirk? And what makes asking a dead person anything shirk? If it is because they can't hear you... well a deaf person can't hear either.... so how can not hearing be the basis of shirk???

[Jadeed]

A dead person is in the Barzakh and he cannot help you.

What is more, anyone who claims 'I believe everything is from Allah,' and then says 'Shaykh Abdul-Qadir, give me rizq!' is an evil liar, because if he believed everything was from Allah, he would not bother asking Shaykh Abdul-Qadir Jilani for anything.

If asking for things from dead people was ok, would it be ok to do this in front of a statue of the dead person? You might say 'statues are haram,' but ok, let's say the features are obscured.

[UntoldTruth]

A dead person is in the Barzakh and he cannot help you.

What is more, anyone who claims 'I believe everything is from Allah,' and then says 'Shaykh Abdul-Qadir, give me rizq!' is an evil liar, because if he believed everything was from Allah, he would not bother asking Shaykh Abdul-Qadir Jilani for anything.

If asking for things from dead people was ok, would it be ok to do this in front of a statue of the dead person? You might say 'statues are haram,' but ok, let's say the features are obscured.

The issue is what is shirk... And what is it that makes it shirk???

The original questioner doesn't agree with the practice of asking a dead person for anything... He doesn't consider it OK..... He doesn't understand why it is called shirk.... If it is because he can't hear... then this can't be true because asking a deaf person to hand you some salt would be shirk.... Why can't we just say the person has erred??? What makes it shirk???

If it is shirk simply based on the fact that they can't help... Then asking a person with no arms for a back massage would be shirk because they would be unable to do so???

What is it that makes it shirk???

[Jadeed]

If asking for things from dead people was ok, would it be ok to do this in front of a statue of the dead person? You might say 'statues are haram,' but ok, let's say the features are obscured.

Please answer the question.

How about a picture? Is it ok to do that in front of a picture of the dead person? Assume the features are obscured.

[a mu-min]

This reply doesn't answer the question...

We can't see in the heart of the person asking the deaf person either.... and asking a deaf people isn't shirk...

What is the meaning of shirk? And what makes asking a dead person anything shirk? If it is because they can't hear you... well a deaf person can't hear either.... so how can not hearing be the basis of shirk???

The point is not whether one sees or not, but whether the individual under question has comitted an act that falls under the realm of shirk by praying to someone that has passed away to intercede on his behalf. If he has done as such, regardless of ocular abilities of the one he is praying to, we will judge him by his actions. If his ignorant, then has an excuse but the ruling would still fall under him unless he stops and askes for forgiveness. I repeat my earlier statement, which was the purpose of the prophets being sent were to tell mankind to WORSHIP ALLAH (swt) ALONE. Their is a difference between acknowleding ALLAH (swt) power and existence, and leaving all acts of worship, including Dua, to him alone. This is what the Ayah states

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَسُولًا أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُوا الطَّاغُوتَ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلَالَةُ ۚ فَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ



When you start the slippery slope of "Only Allah knows what in their hearts", any action can be made excuses for. To this end, it was Umar (ra) who said "we judge by whats apparent, and leave whats hidden to Allah (swt)" and this is the formula by which one's actions is judged in an Islamic court.

This is my last response to this topic.

[warea]

The point is not whether one sees or not, but whether the individual under question has comitted an act that falls under the realm of shirk by praying to someone that has passed away to intercede on his behalf. If he has done as such, regardless of ocular abilities of the one he is praying to, we will judge him by his actions. If his ignorant, then has an excuse but the ruling would still fall under him unless he stops and askes for forgiveness. I repeat my earlier statement, which was the purpose of the prophets being sent were to tell mankind to WORSHIP ALLAH (swt) ALONE. Their is a difference between acknowleding ALLAH (swt) power and existence, and leaving all acts of worship, including Dua, to him alone. This is what the Ayah states

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَسُولًا أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُوا الطَّاغُوتَ ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ هَدَى اللَّهُ وَمِنْهُمْ مَنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلَالَةُ ۚ فَسِيرُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ فَانْظُرُوا كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ



When you start the slippery slope of "Only Allah knows what in their hearts", any action can be made excuses for. To this end, it was Umar (ra) who said "we judge by whats apparent, and leave whats hidden to Allah (swt)" and this is the formula by which one's actions is judged in an Islamic court.

This is my last response to this topic.

http://hornofsatan.wordpress.com/ans...ur-principles/

[Shkapar_Dorwaza]

Apologies for the interjection, just wanted to post the continuation of the series "Line in the Sand" (Part 1) which deals with the topic at hand:

http://muslimmatters.org/2012/04/27/...e-sand-part-1/

The comments section is also worth a read as it covers some questions which are ofter arisen concerning this topic.

[SASLAMS]

this question was asked to Habib umar on his visit to South Africa last month. & he said plainly you can do istighatha but you must understand that only Allah is the doer. they asked if you can make istighatha on the dead, he said dead or alive doesnt matter because the one who will accept & give is alive & gives life, he never dies but makes dead.

its also important to rather not follow a salafie idea of istighatha because everything is shirk for them. the sufi idea of it is that Allah will be more open to accept your dua due to his love of the person or thing that you using as a medium, but ultimately it is only Allah who does. he still has the fadhl & a'dl when it comes to the acceptance.

[Foxbat]

Wonderful Bro Abdullah, I also think that calling everything a "bidah" is not fair - The Sufism order began with hazrat Ali and Hazrat Abu-Bakr, there were Ashab-e-Suffah who remained always in prayers, and when food came in to them, one single person would forward to his next, the next one gave it to the one who is sitting next to him and finally the food came back to the first guy.

I mean to say I have read many books like Kasht Al-Mahjoob by Shikh Ali Usman Hujweiri and and Ghaniyalt ul-Talibeen and none of them said that the people should pray them instead of Allah...Every Awliyah Allah believed in Tauheed and spread the same to all humanity.