Objectionable beliefs/statements of Salafi scholars in relation to Allah's attributes

[Zhulfiqar]

That is amazing. Before they use to hide their anthropomorphism. Now they coming out with clear anthropomorphic teachings. Like that guy hasan30. The older salafis use to hide it. These guys are pure anthropomorphist. Wow. I can't believe it.

السلام عليكم

Exactly, if you visit their site (ahlalhdeeth) you will come across the following beliefs:

The only thing that does not have a form is an abstract object like numbers (e.g. the number 3 in essence does not have a form) or concepts like love (e.g. love is a feeling, what form does it have?) and philosophers have actually disputed whether we can say that abstract objects like numbers do exist. There is no entity called number 7 that exists independently of anything, for the number 7 by necessity is an expression of the quantity of things.

You can't call Allah an abstract object, because abstract objects don't have causal effects (e.g. the number 7 can't cause something to happen, but we all know that Allah caused the universe to come into existence, hence He is not an abstract object).

You can't call Allah a mere concept, for He has an actual Self who speaks with us. Concepts don't have centers of self consciousness, but Allah does.

Christian philosophers (and I am assuming Ashari philosophers) will argue back that Allah is like an unembodied mind (I don't have serious objections to the meaning of this statement as I do with the actual words used), thus arguing that Allah does not have a form. However, just because Allah does not have a body, that does not necessitate that He doesn't have a form. Even Casper the friendly ghost in the cartoons has a form, yet no body. So if our limited minds could imagine this for the creation, then what about the creator?

If Allah does not have a form then what are we going to look at on the Day of Judgment? The Prophet (peace be upon him) said we will see Allah as clearly as the moon on a cloudless night. How on earth does that happen if Allah has nothing of Himself for us to see?

Just as bro Hanbali said, if you say that He does not have a form you are basically nullifying His existence.

http://www . ahlalhdeeth . com/vbe/s...ead.php?t=3669

[faqir]

Salafis say Allah has a Limit

Says pseudo-salafi theologian Ibn Baz on his 'commentary' on al-`Aqida al-Tahawiyya:

فمراده بالحدود يعني التي يعلمها البشر، فهو سبحانه لا يعلم حدوده إلا هو سبحانه

By hudood (limits) the author means such as known by humans since no one except Allah Almighty knows his limits.

see footnote 3: http://www.furqaan.com/nonmuslims/04_muslimcreed.htm

Similarly, one of their predecessors in such a belief, Abu Sa'id ad-Darimi, the author of al-Radd ala Bishr al-Marisi, said, as quoted by Sh. Ibn Taymiyah in Dar' at-Ta'arud without rebuke (2/28-29):

The section on the Hadd (limit) and the 'Arsh

Abu Sa'id said:

The opponent also claimed that Allah does not possess a Hadd (limit), Ghayah (restriction), or Nihayah (end). He said: And this is the basis upon which Jahm (ibn Safwan) built his misguidnace and derived all of his errors. It has not reached us that anyone besides Jahm in the world proceeded him with it. Someone who was discussing this with him (Jahm) said to him: I have come to know your intent oh non-Arab. You intend that Allah is nothing, because all of the creation have known that there is nothing that is called a "thing" except that it has a Hadd (limit), a Ghayah (restriction) and an attribute, and that what has no limit, restriction or attribute is nothingness.

So that which is a "thing" must necessarily be described with attributes. Nothingness is described with no limit or restriction. Your statement: He has no limit means that He is nothing.

Abu Sa'id said:

Allah Ta'ala has a limit that no one knows but Him and it is not allowed for anyone to imagine a limit to His limit in himself, however, he is to beleive in the limit and relegate the knolwedge of that to Allah. His place (Makan) also has a limit and He is upon His 'Arsh above the seven heavens- so these are two limits.

Sh. Ibn Taymiyya goes further himself even referring to Allah's place when he said in Muwaafaqat al-Manqul (2:29) (republished as Dar' Ta'aarud al-`Aqli wal-Naql (2:58-59):

There is agreement one and all among the Muslims and the disbelievers [sic] that Allah Most High is in the heaven and they ascribed it to Him as a limit except al-Marrisi the misguided and his friends. Even little boys that have not reached puberty know this: when a boy is sad he raises his hand to his Lord and calls unto Him in the Heaven and nowhere else. Everybody knows of Allah and His place (makanih) better than the Jahmiyyah! [..]. All this and its like are corroborations and proofs for a limit, and whoever does not admit it has committed disbelief in the Divine Revelation and has denied the verses of Allah!

[maneatinglizard]

It's scary that people actually say things like this, but the question I've always asked myself is if these people actually believe in the things they're saying, or if they just say them because they are so obsessed with the principles they've invented and feel like they can't in any way contradict them.

I mean, does Shaikh Abdul Aziz ar-Rajhi actually believe that there are conflicts in the Will of Allah ? Does he not realize that this contradicts one of the Quranic refutations of polytheism?


لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَا آلِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ


Had there been gods beside Allah, in the heavens and the earth, both of them would have fallen in disorder. So pure is Allah, the Lord of the Throne, from what they describe. (21:22)

How can a person say something like that after reading this Ayah? And is not conflict in will a defect itself?

May Allah protect us all from every sort of deviance. Ameen

[حسان 30]

That is amazing. Before they use to hide their anthropomorphism. Now they coming out with clear anthropomorphic teachings. Like that guy hasan30. The older salafis use to hide it. These guys are pure anthropomorphist. Wow. I can't believe it.

Where was I a "Pure mujassim"..... exactly?

Was it where you thought At-Tabari or At-Thawri was not from the Salaf?

If you want to call me a Kaafir go right ahead I don't care, but at least do it in the thread where I come out clear with my "Mujassim" teachings....

Do you mean the teachings that are in the Qur'an and Sunnah without the need for ta'weel? Like where Allah says he is above, and where the Prophet asked the slave girl where is Allah, and she pointed up? And How I make taqleed of the ruling of Imam Shafi'i concerning that but yet you told me that I am not a Muhadith, so than what is Imam shafi'i? Did he not know the hadith wouldn't be supporitive of his view that this question is used to prove her belief?

Be a man and point it out in the right thread....

And Since I have kufr beliefs according to you there is no need for me to give you salams.

[maneatinglizard]

Where was I a "Pure mujassim"..... exactly?

Was it where you thought At-Tabari or At-Thawri was not from the Salaf?

If you want to call me a Kaafir go right ahead I don't care, but at least do it in the thread where I come out clear with my "Mujassim" teachings....

Do you mean the teachings that are in the Qur'an and Sunnah without the need for ta'weel? Like where Allah says he is above, and where the Prophet asked the slave girl where is Allah, and she pointed up? And How I make taqleed of the ruling of Imam Shafi'i concerning that but yet you told me that I am not a Muhadith, so than what is Imam shafi'i? Did he not know the hadith wouldn't be supporitive of his view that this question is used to prove her belief?

Be a man and point it out in the right thread....

And Since I have kufr beliefs according to you there is no need for me to give you salams.

He's most likely referring to your insistence on claiming that Allah is in a place, and not the narrations you mentioned from Imam Tabari , et all.

[aMuslimForLife]

Where was I a "Pure mujassim"..... exactly?

Yes or no.

Do you believe Allah is literally above His creation. Where creation ends, you believe Allah exist there above it (creation), outside of it (creation), and separate from it (creation)??? Although literally above it, outside of it and separate from it, creation is a mere speck of dust compared to Allah. Is this your belief???

[al_Zayn]

Maybe the learned Brothers can comment on this recent fatwa from Islamqa:

"Allaah is above His creation and He is in front of the one who prays"

http://islam qa.com/en/ref/40865

[Warrior1]

i would like to know from an educated brother. what are the differences between salafi interpretation and hanbali interpretation of Allah?? since they both seem to follow Athari aqeedah more or less.

[حسان 30]

Yes or no.

Do you believe Allah is literally above His creation. Where creation ends, you believe Allah exist there above it (creation), outside of it (creation), and separate from it (creation)??? Although literally above it, outside of it and separate from it, creation is a mere speck of dust compared to Allah. Is this your belief???

I believe Allah exist where he said he exist, Allah is not a figment of my imagination, nor invisible, I believe I will be able to see Allah with my eyes in the hereafter just as informed by the Prophet in the Hadeeth, I believe that these ayat and hadeeth are true and real and not metaphorical in meaning, I believe what countless others before me from amongst the salaf have believed. Allah is above the creation because HE SAID it.

So yes I believe Allah is above the creation, outside the creation, he is Al-Ali, Al-Akbar, ba'in min khalqihi, existing in a reality different than ours while STILL existing, and his ma'iyah is by his knowledge and Shahada, Above the 'Arsh befitting his majesty, as Suyuti said concerning him being above the 'Arsh.

So am I kaafir or not?

[حسان 30]

He's most likely referring to your insistence on claiming that Allah is in a place, and not the narrations you mentioned from Imam Tabari , et all.

That wasn't the point at all, he said why do Salafis say Allahs withness is by knowledge, when the brother brought him the proof from at-tabari he asked for proof from the salaf again, meanwhile at-tabari was technically from the Salaf so Muslims argument was void in that regard.

Forget if Allah is in a place or not, the question is Allah able to be seen, is he real, or is he like "Knowledge" or "Numbers" In that he only exist in thought? Is Allah tangible? Is Allah a thing or not a thing?

You are saying where is the proof for saying Allah is this and Allah is that, then when the ayat and ahadeeth come you say those are mutashabih, fine. But according to Imam Ahmad the ayah "laysa kamithlihi shay" Is also Mutashabih, so then you are doing the same thing by using it?

Ibn Abbas went to the Khawarij and spoke to them and told them "You are using ayat mutashaabihaat"- So was it that they had a problem in believing Allah was over the throne? No, so which ayah according to ibn Abbas were mutashaabih?

After you say they are mutashaabih you say the Salaf were mufawidheen, after you say they were mufawidheen you say ta'weel is the best option. While All I have said is that the Ayah is true, Allah IS above the creation, And Allah is with us (by his knowledge) and Allah is NOT in the creation. Which means that the "Place" Of Allah being above the creation, is a place that is NOT created, Why? because that is WHERE Allah is.... So just like Allahs dhaat is not like our dhaat, and just like the brother mention that Allahs written and spoken name has a beginning and ending (created) while it points to the true reality of Allah, who is Al-Khaaliq. I say to him, fine. Similar is the place of Allah the word place and our understanding of place is created, however the "Place" of Allah points to an uncreated location, which is where Allah exist since he is REAL and not imaginary and not invisible.