The Poison of some Muslim minds - MUST READ

[historymove]

The below article is going to make your hair stand on the back of your neck!

Very scary and disturbing....May Allah have Mercy on us all. Ameen!

---

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...9634?version=1

Terror on the dole
Evening Standard
April 20, 2004

Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT spe******t, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

"As far as I'm concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better," says Abdul Haq, the social worker. "I know it's going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day."

"Pass the brown sauce, brother," says Abu Malaahim, the IT spe******t, devouring his chicken and chips.

"I agree with you, brother," says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. "I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I'll tell them where to get it."

His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. "It will be a day of joy for me," he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

As they talk, a man with a bushy beard, dressed in a jacket emblazoned with the word "Jihad", stands and watches over them, handing around cups of steaming hot coffee. His real name is Ishtiaq Alamgir, but he goes by his adopted name, Sayful Islam, meaning "Sword of Islam". He is the 24-year-old leader of the Luton branch of al-Muhajiroun, an extremist Muslim group with about 800 members countrywide, who regard Osama bin Laden as their hero.

Until recently, nobody took the fanatical beliefs of al-Muhajiroun too seriously, believing that a British-based group so brazenly "out there" could not be involved in something as "underground" as terrorism. The group is led by the exiled Saudi, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, from his base in north London. Yesterday, in a magazine article, Bakri warned that several radical groups are poised to strike in London.

For all its inflammatory rhetoric, al-Muhajiroun has never been linked to actual violence. Yet, with the discovery last month of half-a-tonne of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient used in the Bali and Turkey terror attacks - and with the arrest of eight young British Muslims in London and the South-East, including six in Luton, extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun are under the spotlight like never before.

Detectives fear that the "enemy within", the homegrown extremists leading apparently normal lives in suburbia, now pose the greatest threat to security in Britain. Sayful and his friends fit this "homegrown" profile: three were born here, two came as young children from Pakistan; all were educated in local Luton schools; and they grew up in families of full employment - one of their fathers is a retired local businessman, two are engineers, and two worked in the local Vauxhall car plant.

The question is: how worried should we be? Is al-Muhajiroun nothing more than a repository for disaffected Muslim youths who have adopted an extreme interpretation of Islam - perhaps to cock a snook at the white establishment - but who are essentially posturing? Or does the group also perform a more sinister function, sucking in alienated young men and brainwashing the more impressionable into becoming future suicide bombers?

Although none of the arrested Muslims - aged 17 to 32 - appear to be current al-Muhajiroun members, rumours have circulated of informal links to the group. Moreover, parents of the arrested men have spoken anxiously of the "radicalising influence" of al-Muhajiroun militants who " corrupt" their children at mosques.

Nowhere has this public confrontation between radicals and moderates been more apparent than in Luton, which has the highest density of Muslims in the South-East - 28,000 out of a total population of 140,000 - and has long been regarded as a hotbed of extremism.

Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton's hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with " Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. "When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members," he says. "Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us."

The strange thing is that four years ago, Sayful Islam was a jeans-clad student completing his degree in business economics at Middlesex University in Hendon, north London.

The son of a British Rail engineer who came to this country from Pakistan, Sayful grew up in a moderate, middle-class Muslim family in Luton. At the local Denbigh High School, he is remembered as one of the smartest kids, and was selected to attend a science masterclass at Cambridge University. He would go on to marry, have two children and find work as an accountant for the Inland Revenue in Luton. He was thoroughly uninterested in politics.

THEN he met Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad at a local event. Within two years, he had swapped his decently paid job as an accountant for an unpaid one as a political agitator. What turned him into an extremist? And how far is he prepared to go to achieve his aims?

Prior to seeing the group at the fastfood restaurant, Sayful meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton's Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker's allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to "overthrow it".

"I made a decision that I wanted to follow what Islam really said," Sayful begins, sitting on his sofa in his thowb (a traditional robe) and bare feet. "I went to listen to all the local imams, but I found their portrayal of Islam was too secularised. When I heard Sheikh Omar [the leader] of al-Muhajiroun speak, it was pure Islam, with no compromise. I found that appealing.

"At the same time," continues Sayful, "wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine."

But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful's worldview. "When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated," he says. "That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun." Now he does not consider himself British. "I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun ("the immigrants") is nothing less than Khilafah - "the worldwide domination of Islam". The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. "I support him 100 per cent."

Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?

"Yes," he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won't be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

"Britain became a legitimate target when it sent troops to Iraq. But it is against Islam for me to engage personally in acts of terrorism in the UK because I live here. According to Islam, I have a covenant of security with the UK, as long as they allow us Muslims to live here in peace."

HE USES the phrase "covenant of security" constantly. He attempts to explain. "If we want to engage in terrorism, we would have to leave the country," he says. "It is against Islam to do otherwise." Such a course of action, he says, he is not prepared to undertake. This is why, Sayful claims, it is consistent, and not cowardly, for him to espouse the rhetoric of terrorism, the "martyrdom-operations", while simultaneouslylimiting himself to nonviolentactions such as leafletting outside Luton town hall.

He denies any link between al-Muhajiroun and the Muslims arrested in the recent police raids. But, as I later discover at the fastfood restaurant, not everyone attaching themselves, however loosely, to al-Muhajiroun draws the same line. Two members of the group - Abu Yusuf, the financial adviser, and Abu Musa, the security guard - scorn al-Muhajiroun as "too moderate".

"I am freelance," says Abu Yusuf, fixing me with his piercing brown eyes. What does that mean? I ask.

"The difference between us and those two," interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, "is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing."

Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain's scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: "He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame."

How far are you prepared to go? I ask.

"You want to know how far I will go," says Abu Musa, his high-pitched lisp rising an octave. "When Allah said in the Koran 'kill and be killed', that's what I want. I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy."

Are you saying, I probe, that you are looking to kill people yourself ? "Yes," Abu Musa says, "to kill and to be killed." He emphasises each word.

What's stopped you doing it? "As you know from watching the news," intones Abu Yusuf, "there are brothers who do leave the country and do it." He is referring to the four Muslims from Luton who died fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the two British Muslims, said to have had ties to al-Muhajiroun, who last April left to become suicide bombers in Israel. "In-shallah [ Godwilling], there will be a time to go."

It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious or just pumped full of misguided, youthful bravado. Though I see coldness - even ruthlessness - in their eyes, I sense no malice. Both young men agree, perhaps foolishly, to be quoted using their real names, though they decline photographs - thus illustrating their uncertainty of which way to jump.

Muhammad Sulaiman, president of the Islamic Cultural Society, the largest of the 14 mosques in Luton, dismisses al-Muhajiroun as "verbal diarrhoea".

"They are an extreme Right-wing group - the Muslim version of the BNP," he says disdainfully. "They think Muslims should dominate, just like the BNP thinks whites should dominate. They use Islam as a vehicle to promote their distorted beliefs, particularly to unemployed young bloods who are vulnerable."

ALTHOUGH unemployment in Luton is just six per cent, the rate among Muslim youths is estimated at 25 per cent. "They are no more representative of our Muslim community than the BNP are of the white community."

Sulaiman insists that Sayful Islam and his crew are not welcome at the mosque. He cannot prevent them praying there, but he will never give them a platform. "I've told Sayful to bugger off and ejected him many times," he says brusquely. "Even Sayful's father, who I know well, thinks his son has been brainwashed."

But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

They also mock the idea that they are attracted to al-Muhajiroun because they have suffered alienation from white society. "Do we look like scum?" they ask. "Do we look illiterate?"

As they call for the bill, Abu Malaahim flicks open his 3G mobile phone and, with a satisfied grin, displays the image, downloaded from the internet, of an American Humvee burning in Iraq.

Abu Yusuf says: "That's nothing. I downloaded the picture of the four burnt Americans hanging from the bridge." It's oneupmanship, al-Muhajiroun style.

Sayful, the only married one in the group, prepares to go home to his wife and children. Before he departs, he says he has a message to deliver.

"I want to warn that the police raids - if repeated - could create a bad situation.

"Islam is not like Christianity, where they turn the other cheek. If they raid our homes, it could lead to the covenant of security being broken.

"Islam allows us to retaliate. That would include" - he tugs his "Jihad" coat tight against the night air - "by violent means."

-- ## --

[historymove]

We have to recognize that we have a tiny minority of violent extremists in the Muslim ummah.

We have to confront them - this is a battle of ideas and ideology, not of guns and war.

Insha'Allah, the truth and good will triumph over the evil ideas and beliefs of these people.

[Algebra]

The below article is going to make your hair stand on the back of your neck!

Very scary and disturbing....May Allah have Mercy on us all. Ameen!

---

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...9634?version=1

Terror on the dole
Evening Standard
April 20, 2004

Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT spe******t, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

"As far as I'm concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better," says Abdul Haq, the social worker. "I know it's going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day."

"Pass the brown sauce, brother," says Abu Malaahim, the IT spe******t, devouring his chicken and chips.

"I agree with you, brother," says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. "I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I'll tell them where to get it."

His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. "It will be a day of joy for me," he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

As they talk, a man with a bushy beard, dressed in a jacket emblazoned with the word "Jihad", stands and watches over them, handing around cups of steaming hot coffee. His real name is Ishtiaq Alamgir, but he goes by his adopted name, Sayful Islam, meaning "Sword of Islam". He is the 24-year-old leader of the Luton branch of al-Muhajiroun, an extremist Muslim group with about 800 members countrywide, who regard Osama bin Laden as their hero.

Until recently, nobody took the fanatical beliefs of al-Muhajiroun too seriously, believing that a British-based group so brazenly "out there" could not be involved in something as "underground" as terrorism. The group is led by the exiled Saudi, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, from his base in north London. Yesterday, in a magazine article, Bakri warned that several radical groups are poised to strike in London.

For all its inflammatory rhetoric, al-Muhajiroun has never been linked to actual violence. Yet, with the discovery last month of half-a-tonne of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient used in the Bali and Turkey terror attacks - and with the arrest of eight young British Muslims in London and the South-East, including six in Luton, extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun are under the spotlight like never before.

Detectives fear that the "enemy within", the homegrown extremists leading apparently normal lives in suburbia, now pose the greatest threat to security in Britain. Sayful and his friends fit this "homegrown" profile: three were born here, two came as young children from Pakistan; all were educated in local Luton schools; and they grew up in families of full employment - one of their fathers is a retired local businessman, two are engineers, and two worked in the local Vauxhall car plant.

The question is: how worried should we be? Is al-Muhajiroun nothing more than a repository for disaffected Muslim youths who have adopted an extreme interpretation of Islam - perhaps to cock a snook at the white establishment - but who are essentially posturing? Or does the group also perform a more sinister function, sucking in alienated young men and brainwashing the more impressionable into becoming future suicide bombers?

Although none of the arrested Muslims - aged 17 to 32 - appear to be current al-Muhajiroun members, rumours have circulated of informal links to the group. Moreover, parents of the arrested men have spoken anxiously of the "radicalising influence" of al-Muhajiroun militants who " corrupt" their children at mosques.

Nowhere has this public confrontation between radicals and moderates been more apparent than in Luton, which has the highest density of Muslims in the South-East - 28,000 out of a total population of 140,000 - and has long been regarded as a hotbed of extremism.

Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton's hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with " Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. "When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members," he says. "Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us."

The strange thing is that four years ago, Sayful Islam was a jeans-clad student completing his degree in business economics at Middlesex University in Hendon, north London.

The son of a British Rail engineer who came to this country from Pakistan, Sayful grew up in a moderate, middle-class Muslim family in Luton. At the local Denbigh High School, he is remembered as one of the smartest kids, and was selected to attend a science masterclass at Cambridge University. He would go on to marry, have two children and find work as an accountant for the Inland Revenue in Luton. He was thoroughly uninterested in politics.

THEN he met Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad at a local event. Within two years, he had swapped his decently paid job as an accountant for an unpaid one as a political agitator. What turned him into an extremist? And how far is he prepared to go to achieve his aims?

Prior to seeing the group at the fastfood restaurant, Sayful meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton's Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker's allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to "overthrow it".

"I made a decision that I wanted to follow what Islam really said," Sayful begins, sitting on his sofa in his thowb (a traditional robe) and bare feet. "I went to listen to all the local imams, but I found their portrayal of Islam was too secularised. When I heard Sheikh Omar [the leader] of al-Muhajiroun speak, it was pure Islam, with no compromise. I found that appealing.

"At the same time," continues Sayful, "wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine."

But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful's worldview. "When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated," he says. "That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun." Now he does not consider himself British. "I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun ("the immigrants") is nothing less than Khilafah - "the worldwide domination of Islam". The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. "I support him 100 per cent."

Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?

"Yes," he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won't be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

"Britain became a legitimate target when it sent troops to Iraq. But it is against Islam for me to engage personally in acts of terrorism in the UK because I live here. According to Islam, I have a covenant of security with the UK, as long as they allow us Muslims to live here in peace."

HE USES the phrase "covenant of security" constantly. He attempts to explain. "If we want to engage in terrorism, we would have to leave the country," he says. "It is against Islam to do otherwise." Such a course of action, he says, he is not prepared to undertake. This is why, Sayful claims, it is consistent, and not cowardly, for him to espouse the rhetoric of terrorism, the "martyrdom-operations", while simultaneouslylimiting himself to nonviolentactions such as leafletting outside Luton town hall.

He denies any link between al-Muhajiroun and the Muslims arrested in the recent police raids. But, as I later discover at the fastfood restaurant, not everyone attaching themselves, however loosely, to al-Muhajiroun draws the same line. Two members of the group - Abu Yusuf, the financial adviser, and Abu Musa, the security guard - scorn al-Muhajiroun as "too moderate".

"I am freelance," says Abu Yusuf, fixing me with his piercing brown eyes. What does that mean? I ask.

"The difference between us and those two," interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, "is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing."

Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain's scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: "He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame."

How far are you prepared to go? I ask.

"You want to know how far I will go," says Abu Musa, his high-pitched lisp rising an octave. "When Allah said in the Koran 'kill and be killed', that's what I want. I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy."

Are you saying, I probe, that you are looking to kill people yourself ? "Yes," Abu Musa says, "to kill and to be killed." He emphasises each word.

What's stopped you doing it? "As you know from watching the news," intones Abu Yusuf, "there are brothers who do leave the country and do it." He is referring to the four Muslims from Luton who died fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the two British Muslims, said to have had ties to al-Muhajiroun, who last April left to become suicide bombers in Israel. "In-shallah [ Godwilling], there will be a time to go."

It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious or just pumped full of misguided, youthful bravado. Though I see coldness - even ruthlessness - in their eyes, I sense no malice. Both young men agree, perhaps foolishly, to be quoted using their real names, though they decline photographs - thus illustrating their uncertainty of which way to jump.

Muhammad Sulaiman, president of the Islamic Cultural Society, the largest of the 14 mosques in Luton, dismisses al-Muhajiroun as "verbal diarrhoea".

"They are an extreme Right-wing group - the Muslim version of the BNP," he says disdainfully. "They think Muslims should dominate, just like the BNP thinks whites should dominate. They use Islam as a vehicle to promote their distorted beliefs, particularly to unemployed young bloods who are vulnerable."

ALTHOUGH unemployment in Luton is just six per cent, the rate among Muslim youths is estimated at 25 per cent. "They are no more representative of our Muslim community than the BNP are of the white community."

Sulaiman insists that Sayful Islam and his crew are not welcome at the mosque. He cannot prevent them praying there, but he will never give them a platform. "I've told Sayful to bugger off and ejected him many times," he says brusquely. "Even Sayful's father, who I know well, thinks his son has been brainwashed."

But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

They also mock the idea that they are attracted to al-Muhajiroun because they have suffered alienation from white society. "Do we look like scum?" they ask. "Do we look illiterate?"

As they call for the bill, Abu Malaahim flicks open his 3G mobile phone and, with a satisfied grin, displays the image, downloaded from the internet, of an American Humvee burning in Iraq.

Abu Yusuf says: "That's nothing. I downloaded the picture of the four burnt Americans hanging from the bridge." It's oneupmanship, al-Muhajiroun style.

Sayful, the only married one in the group, prepares to go home to his wife and children. Before he departs, he says he has a message to deliver.

"I want to warn that the police raids - if repeated - could create a bad situation.

"Islam is not like Christianity, where they turn the other cheek. If they raid our homes, it could lead to the covenant of security being broken.

"Islam allows us to retaliate. That would include" - he tugs his "Jihad" coat tight against the night air - "by violent means."

-- ## --

Hi there

I am not condoning anyone's bad behavior but when you accuse Muslims than you must furnish evidence according to Islamic Shariah rules of evidence. A mere article by a non-Muslim does not even come close to meet that requirement. Muslims should adhere to the Commands found in Qur'an 49:6.

I am also not sure with two posts on this thread by you, alone, how this thread got the rating of five star? I think minus five would be appropriate, since you have posted a hearsay and slander without evidence.

Regards
Algebra

[Coucou]

Hi there

I am not condoning anyone's bad behavior but when you accuse Muslims than you must furnish evidence according to Islamic Shariah rules of evidence. A mere article by a non-Muslim does not even come close to meet that requirement. Muslims should adhere to the Commands found in Qur'an 49:6.

I am also not sure with two posts on this thread by you, alone, how this thread got the rating of five star? I think minus five would be appropriate, since you have posted a hearsay and slander without evidence.

Regards
Algebra

Since there have been suicide attacks how can you doubt that there are people who think like this? Living in denial does not help anyone.

[Mossy]

Indeed, even should the current situation not be the fault of these groups, it cannot be denied that they exist or their hate filled message (against both muslims and non-muslims) should continue to be spewed.

[historymove]

Br. Mossy,

That's exactly what I am saying - Muslims in denial about what some Muslims are doing is not going to help the Ummah.

[Abu Sumaiya]

tell me... how do we know these 4 ppl (paks) their showing... the mi6 or cia or someone else didn't plan this whole thing... and abduct these ppl and killed em or whatever... and then bombed london and put it on these guys....??.. afterall we know cia was behind kennedys assasination (their own president) in the 70's... when he was doi'n the deal with cuba....

the capitalist west would do such a thing even to their own for greater benefits..... its all about benefits/interests in the west!!

now they have the perfect reason to be in iraaq and afghanistan and exterminate al-qaeda and zarqawi... and till they do so.. they'll just be pumping that black-gold (oil) out of the middleeast... and furthering their influence in the region and installing their puppets...

Plz plz ppl we shoudn't buy what comes on media so easy...... its the greatest propoganda tool out there!!

[Abu Talaal]

Assalaamu alaikum

I know brothers (not personally) who are extremists and follow Omar Bakri and others. Omar Bakri is nobody.

There are some scholars in Saudi, like Nasir al-Fahad, Ali al-Khudayr, etc., most of whom are in prison, that are the ones who supply fatwas for supporting this garbage.

Not only that, I have actually seen a fatwa from tibyan dot com which is by Hamud ibn al-Uqla ash-Shu'aybi (rahimahullah), the late student of Sheikh Ibrahim aal ash Sheikh, and the fatwa also has the arabic scanned in and apparently he supported the 9/11 attacks.

Most people consider Hamud ibn al-Uqla to be amongst the senior Hanbali (not Salafi) mashayikh but anyways...moving on..


One thing I will say is that in Saudi, among other places like Yemen and also al-Barqawi (in jail) in Jordan, we have some "sheikhs" who are responsible for a lot of the stuff going on here. All this extremism is coming from Muslims who are in fact very religious (I know some of them) and the key is to get rid of their scholars or stop their scholars somehow.

Don't get me wrong, jihad is warranted in certain parts of the world. But, killing innocents is not. This whole idea of killing innocents being allowed right now is coming from these "sheikhs" I have just mentioned. They basically say since the US and their allies kill innocents, they can kill innocents because of the rule of an eye for an eye in Islam (they see this rule as applying in every aspect of the Shariah - including jihad).


However, I have never heard something like this from traditional madahib followers and Allah knows best. This is an isolated group with no more than perhaps a few dozen sheikhs (including the ones i mentioned) around the world (mainly Saudi, Yemen, Jordan) supporting them.

A key to stop the spread of these sheikhs' fatwas is to shut down certain internet sites such as:

RevivingIslam

Tibyan Publications

..and a few others perhaps, I can't remember right now. Anyways, if someone wanted I could help them track down a lot of this stuff and get rid of it but it's hard to trust non-Muslims (like police force, etc.).

The key is to not let these "sheikhs" give fatwa. Note: Hamud ibn al-Uqla is dead (rahimahullah)

Look at how they torture the Muslims in Guantanomo and Abu Ghuraib - and many of them are innocent anyways.

Some have been tortured to death may Allah give them janat Al Firdaus.Aameen.


Bottom line: don't fool yourselves this is a real problem. As we speak there are perhaps hundreds of Muslims around the world ready to not just kill military occupiers (who don't belong outside of the US in the first place), but innocent people in market places and stuff.

So, those of you brothers and sisters who aren't aware of all this, trust me it is a serious problem and needs to be eliminated.

These people are not ordinary followers of Islam. They are Salafis, but they are not any Salafis.

I am speaking about a specific, small group of Salafis. Many Salafis aren't even aware of this stuff.

Don't blame all Salafis, they are misguided yes but it is a small, small minority among them (the most extreme - including Usama ibn Laadin) who are behind a lot of what's going on.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN they did the job in London. However, it does mean that they very well could have done it and they would praise it if it was done (as they have through Internet statements and the like).

And, this is just the English side. There are some forums in Arabic to who spread the fatwas of these sheikhs which convince Salafis that attacking innocents is praiseworthy - and then you end up seeing them go do it.


See what happens when you don't follow a madhab?

Again, I'm not blaming all Salafis - it's a small minority. But, a large part of the problem could be avoided if Salafis followed madhabs properly like the rest of us.


Bottom line: we need to do something about this problem facing our community. Believe me, this thing is very easy to get into the minds of the youth.

Most of those attracted to these sheikhs' fatwas are between 15 and 30 and are very strong-willed and confident and religious Salafis - they are outcasts of normal Salafis and they are outcasts of the Muslim society in general because of their odd beliefs.

It's a very strange problem which will be difficult to deal with. The cutting the nip from the bud, i.e. cutting the roots.

The roots are these sheikhs. But if you do anything against these sheikhs, it usually just makes their followers more perseverant

anyways..who knows what do ... ALLAHUL MUST'AAN


PS: Most of these 15-30 yr olds are in the UK or US, although they can be found everywhere from Egypt to Bangladesh, and so on...

I may have even known one of the bombers I'm not sure. This article I read said these guys decided to pray at a community centre and this is very similar to a guy I knew in the UK (by alias) who did the same thing with some guys as they did not fit in with the mosques nearby or something.

Allaahu aalem I hope it wasn't him. Don't ask me how I know these ppl.

[Harris Ibn Qureshi]

Asalaam Alaikum


All I know about obl is that he was born in a rich family and gave that all up to help liberate Afghanistan from the Soviet Occupation. He was wounded and was often quoted as risking his life in many operations. This can be said about all the muslims who gave up their worldly lives and went to Afghanistan during the Soviet Occupation.

Now after that god knows best what happened to OBL and the other muslims, wither they became blindly fanatical as some muslims and majority terrorist experts have mentioned is known only to those who know them and Allah (swt). A retired leutenant Genral from Pakistan ISI, Hamid Gul has often said Bin Laden didn't do any of these bombings and 9/11. He goes on to mention that Taliban would have tried him in their notorious famous shariah courts, if they had evidence he actually participated in these actions. The same for the Al-Qaida group the Taliban were sheltering. Hamid Gul noted that after the bombings and 9/11 Taliban often asked the US government to provide evidence against obl and al-qaida so they can try them, but U.S always refused. This in turn led Taliban to conclude that something in fact is shady and refused to give up obl and his militants due to the Americans refusal of providing evidence. Hamid Gul (as was late mufti nazamuddin shamzai) was one of the men responsible for assisting the taliban rise to power and has often had access to mullah omar.

Now the brother who posted above mentioned all these shaykhs etc. Thier is no doubt in my mind they might be agent provatuers working for intelligence agenices. I have read about islamic militancy (doesn't make me an expert) and authors have always mentioned that many of these shaykhs are hired as spies and provateurs to lure angry youths in to terrorism. Some actually carry out the terrorist operations some get caught, usually when the political situation seems fit.

We are living in some turbulent times "shaykhs" have become spies and agent provatuers and many "islamic" groups have sprung out calling for death to civilians, which in part could be a scheme.

That being said, muslims although a small minority can be able to be led to cause terrorism, it is difficult to tell. We can't tell if it's their own doing and if it was organized without any help from intelligence agencies. Why? Because many intelligence agencies have been heavily involved in recruiting terrorists and proping up terrorist groups who call themselves a islamic org.

Now for the London blasts not even a week has gone by and all 4 pakistani men have been identified, their life story etc have also been published. Blair after the bomb had accused islamic extremists for the bombings. When the investigation went down MUSLIMS were only looked at in the video footage. All other possible attackers were over looked.

I personally don't beleive what the media tells me and i know fully well how these guys want muslims to fight each other. They said it after 9/11, that they don't want a war with islam, they want a war within islam.

Also this salaafi/sufi issue has often been thrown around. i am not a salaafi but i have noticed most people have accused the salaafi 's of doing these type of things. The salaafis in question are the jihadi salaafis. If you look into their literature their basically Sheikh Abdullah Azzams followers and have looked up to him for their struggle as well as (syed Qutb). Azzam clearly in his books is against killing civilains based on Quranic verses and the opinion of the ulema of Haq.

I personally find it disgusting that anyone can kill civilans. 9/11 and 7/7 had many innocent people killed. But we must ask ourselves a few questions and put our sufi/salaafi disputes aside. First why would a muslim target England. The UK people have been instrumental in the fight against G-Bay and the Anti war effort in Iraq. Many have even publically pressured Blair to pull out his troops. Before 7/7 we now know that britain were planing to reduce their troops on masse. Why would a muslim blow up a train full of people during this time? Also we have to always ask ourselves who benefits.

None the less we must condemn this type of terrorism, and if we do find shaykhs and muslims inciting the killing of civialns we must stop them, we should even report them to the police.

[nauk]

I am of the view that you have two extremists; West extremists and those under muslim umbrella(if indeed they are only god knows), an everyone else is innocent and caught up in the middle (you and i).

The war (yes this is a war) is purely for monetry and niether side cares who is innocent and who ain't. How many iraqi's have died? How many londoners died? Both will play the killing of innocents towards their own political advantage to justify more killing of innocents, but what gets me certainly on a concience level is when somebody justifies killing 1 innocent with killing another innocent, this is akin to selling ones deen down the drain.