A new one from the pandora box of Barelvi innovations

[dr.ati]

Question : Is talqeen of dead permissible after burying , what is the position of Ahle Sunnah and that of Mu’tazilah ?

Answer : Hanfiyah do not say of talqeen of dead, because Sima’ is not established for them, people who say about Sima’, then talqeen is moofid for them”

( Kifayatul Mufti by Mufti Kifayat Ullah ra v 4 p 39 in chapter of Janaiz )

[dr.ati]

Thats the main stimuli behind every fatwa from all the scholars. Almost everyone of them said that it was a weak narration, yet they all said that talqin was allowed/recommended. Your problem is that you lack usuli comprehention. Why don't you read the fatawa again and at least try to understand how they argued and how they came to the conclusion that talqin was allowed/recommended in spite of the hadith being da'if.

And please have a look at Adwa al-bayan. It has the most detailed discussion I have seen so far.

If you don't agree with them are they innovators in your eyes, since they are basing a hukm on a weak hadith, even when they knew it was weak? If your answer is yes, then peace be upon you. If your answer is no then please tell me why they are not considered innovators for doing that, but everyone else living today is an innovator.

You are right in saying that i lack usooli comprehension. However , calling Talqeen to the dead at the graves an innovation is not my stance alone , Shaykh Ibn Baz rahimuhullah has called it innovation. If its all about the defense of the Madhabi positions then am i allowed to defend mine?
Secondly , I think that the first question you should have asked would have been " Is the Shaykh in the video Shafi'?" If the answr was no , you should not have brought in your madhab's stance in this argumentation. If in every issue we start taking sides based on our Madhabi positions , it would become a mess. Say , if something is Bidaah according to the Hanafi position and Mustahab according to the Shafi' position.Then if a Hanafi makes that innovation and a Shafi' brings in his Madhabi stance in his defense , what is going to happen at the end of the day? The only option one will be left after that will be to scrutinize the Shafi' position on merits and not their usool. That is what i tried to do.
I would go through Adwa al-bayan and see what it says.

[Abbe]

You are right in saying that i lack usooli comprehension. However , calling Talqeen to the dead at the graves an innovation is not my stance alone , Shaykh Ibn Baz rahimuhullah has called it innovation. If its all about the defense of the Madhabi positions then am i allowed to defend mine?
Secondly , I think that the first question you should have asked would have been " Is the Shaykh in the video Shafi'?" If the answr was no , you should not have brought in your madhab's stance in this argumentation. If in every issue we start taking sides based on our Madhabi positions , it would become a mess. Say , if something is Bidaah according to the Hanafi position and Mustahab according to the Shafi' position.Then if a Hanafi makes that innovation and a Shafi' brings in his Madhabi stance in his defense , what is going to happen at the end of the day? The only option one will be left after that will be to scrutinize the Shafi' position on merits and not their usool. That is what i tried to do.
I would go through Adwa al-bayan and see what it says.

Look. This is what I wrote a while ago in this thread:

If we leave the evidence issue for a while it is still a fact that scholars of all the different law schools allowed it. Are you feeling comfortable calling people who do talqiin for innovators? If you learn to read the salafai fatawa as an opinion instead of understanding it as what Islam "says", then we could probably agree on a lot of things.

If you stick to the salafi opinion as an opinion we are fine. The problem is that you make the salafi opinion the opinion of Islam.

Lets consider the opposite. What will happen if I use the opinion of the shafi'is as the opinion of Islam, and if the hanafis do the same, and the malikis and the hanbalis. We would have war everywere. But al-hamdulillah. The scholars recognice the difference of opinions that are based on a sound usul.

If you use the salafi opinions as a criteria to differentiate between right and wrong, regardless of usul, then you have to say that everyone allowing/recommending talqin are innovators, including Imam Ahmad and Ibn Taymiyya.

My advice is that you do like everyone else her on this forum. When you present a ruling mention that it's the opinion of such and such scholar/group. In this way we will have less confrontations and more time to do better things.

[abuhajira]

What about Maraqi al-Falaah? Are the rulings there considered mu'tamad? I have a copy of Maraqi and in it the author states that its recommended (mashru') (It's right in the beginning of chapter Baab Ahkaam al-Janaa'iz)

Perhaps my wordings were misleading. The issue is dependant on the mas'ala of sama'ul mautaa. Hanafi are not qa'il of it. So the talqeen after death would not serve a purpose. While many of hanafi kutub mention it being mashru' etc the negation is reported from Dhahirur Riwaya. So the preference will be given to that which is from dhahirur riwaya.

There is tafseel in issue. But as for the fatwa, we do not negate those who do talqeen after death. And that is probably the best taujeeh of it neither commanded nor prohibited as mention in the same kutub of fiqh as well.

The other aspect was it being a common shi'aar of rawafidh. This I would like to know from Tripoly Sunni..

InshAllah if I get a chance I will write up detail on it later on.

اللباب في شرح الكتاب - (1 / 62)
وأما تلقينه في القبر فمشروع عند أهل السنة؛ لأن اللّه تعالى يحييه في القبر. جوهرة. وقيل: لا يلقن، وقيل: لا يؤمر به ولا ينهى عنه.

[dr.ati]

@ Maulana abu Hajira. Can you please look up for the Fatwa of Mufti KifayatUllah ra which i mentioned if you have a hard copy of Kifayat al Mufti? I think it is not available online.

[abuhajira]

Question : Is talqeen of dead permissible after burying , what is the position of Ahle Sunnah and that of Mu’tazilah ?

Answer : Hanfiyah do not say of talqeen of dead, because Sima’ is not established for them, people who say about Sima’, then talqeen is moofid for them [in their sight]”

( Kifayatul Mufti by Mufti Kifayat Ullah ra v 4 p 39 in chapter of Janaiz )

The ibarah you quoted in my book is on Vol. 4 Pg 74 (maktaba darul isha'at). The ibarah is also incomplete. Remaining ibarah of the fatwa goes...

"...and if some one does (talqeen) then he should not be stopped. According to Mu'tazila since there being life for the deceased in the grave is not correct, they too do not agree with talqeen. Hanafiya although do not agree with Simaa' Mawtaa (hearing of the dead) still do agree with the benefit of Talqeen whether the deceased listens or not, i.e he can get benefit from the mere mentioning 9i.e talqeen, just like the other reading of quran, kalimaat of thawab etc). (Muhammad Kifayatullah )(Kifayatul Mufti Vol. 4 Pg 74)

There are about 5 fatawa on the issue in Kifayatul Mufti. The fourth one is very mufassal and usuli jawab on the issue. Its from the pen of Mawlwi Abdul Kareem Saheb) (Vol 4 Pg 77). It would have been better for to read that on and translate it. Very beneficial stuff.

[abulayl]

i.e he can get benefit from the mere mentioning 9i.e talqeen, just like the other reading of quran, kalimaat of thawab etc). (Muhammad Kifayatullah )(Kifayatul Mufti Vol. 4 Pg 74)

that means its kind of sadqa zariyah hadrat? Alhamdulillah if its so, then i am glad that i had the same thinking too in my mind that, people may do what they can do for the dead, but will it benifit him or not, depends on Allah subhanahu wa taala.

but the way TUQ the actor portrays, he gave someone the ticket of Jannah.

[Abbe]

Perhaps my wordings were misleading. The issue is dependant on the mas'ala of sama'ul mautaa. Hanafi are not qa'il of it. So the talqeen after death would not serve a purpose. While many of hanafi kutub mention it being mashru' etc the negation is reported from Dhahirur Riwaya. So the preference will be given to that which is from dhahirur riwaya.

There is tafseel in issue. But as for the fatwa, we do not negate those who do talqeen after death. And that is probably the best taujeeh of it neither commanded nor prohibited as mention in the same kutub of fiqh as well.

The other aspect was it being a common shi'aar of rawafidh. This I would like to know from Tripoly Sunni..

InshAllah if I get a chance I will write up detail on it later on.

اللباب في شرح الكتاب - (1 / 62)
وأما تلقينه في القبر فمشروع عند أهل السنة؛ لأن اللّه تعالى يحييه في القبر. جوهرة. وقيل: لا يلقن، وقيل: لا يؤمر به ولا ينهى عنه.

Jazakumu Allahu khayra. So if i understand you correct, according to the hanafis, it would be wrong to censure someone who makes talqin.

[SunniSeeker]

I think in conclusion it is fair to say that those who have claimed talqin is unconditionally impermissible and a bida', and have even gone so far as to mock it are the real bidatis here.

dr. zakir on the hand seems to be trying to reinvent Islam or is unwittingly (I hope) undermining Islam by attacking peoples conviction in sound scholarship, in the same way as Muslim secularists do.

[Abbe]

Sorry one more thing. Do the hanafis negate that the dead hear the sound of the footsteps as well? If not what would be the problem of talqin at that point?