Are Maturidies Ahlus-Sunnah? Answered by Mufti Desai

**Harris Ibn Qureshi** · 25-08-2005, 04:38 AM

Asalaam Alaikum

I recently got this link, it is answered by mufti Ebrahim Desai. Here in is answer he basicaly said the making taweel is only for the scholars and has accepted ibn Tamiya's Aqeed Wasitiya (thats what it seems) Cause from my understanding Ibn tamiya (may allah be pleased with him) is a literalist and has taweel should not be made. So basicaly ahul sunnah accept ibn tamiya's aqaid? Anyone here please clarify this for me, i tried posting on the question and answer thread, but it's disabled...

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http://www.albalagh.net/qa/matrudies_ahlus_sunnah.shtml

Articles of Faith: Are Maturidies Ahlus-Sunnah?

By Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Posted: 24 Rabi-ul-Awwal 1424, 26 May 2003

Q.) A sheikh said Ahl-us-Sunnah wal Jamah are those who follows the thought of Imam ibn Taymiyyah, that is to believe in Allahs' sifat (attributes) without doing taweel (interpretation). The Ash'aris and Maturidies do taweel which is not the way of the salaf. Therefore they are not from the Ahlus-Sunnah. My question is that I follow the fiqh of Imam Abu Hanifah and I believe that I am a Maturidie. Am I not then from Ahlus-Sunnah? Please answer my question in detail. [Ansar Ali]

A.) The Maturidis and the Ash'aris are from the Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jamaa. Hereunder is a brief explanation on their beliefs regarding the Sifat of Allah.

Basically, the Ulama of Aqaaid (beliefs) are of two categories, a) The Salaf (former Ulama), b) Mutakallimeen (Ulama of Aqeedah)

Imam al-Nawawiy (RA) mentions in his commentary of Sahih Muslim, 'There are two famous Madhabs with regards to the beliefs of the Sifaat of Allah:

1) The Madhab of majority of the Salaf and a few Mutakallimeen is to believe in the reality of the Sifaat of Allah in accordance to whatever is appropriate for Allah. The apparent known meanings of those Sifaat are not meant. No Ta'weel (interpretation) should be made in the matter.

2) The Madhab of most of the Mutakallimeen and a few of the Salaf like Imaam al-Nawawiy and Imaam al-Awzaa'ee is that Ta'weel will be made.

Both these Madhabs are unanimously accepted.

Actually, our Aqeeda is in accordance with the first Madhab. The second Madhab came about because there were many misled groups in the latter times, like al-Mujassamah who believe that Allah has the same qualities as human beings. The Mutakallimeen had to refute these misled groups. To do so they made Ta'weelaat (interpretations) by stating that these verse are not in their literal sense, but indicate Power, Majesty, etc. In making Ta'weel, they did not intend to oppose the Salaf, but to oppose the misled groups. The Mutakallimeen have stated that if they were in the era of the Salaf, they would not have made any Ta'weel in the verse of Sifaat.

As for Imaam al-Maturidee (who the Hanafis generally follow in beliefs) and Imaam al-Awzaa'ee (who the Shaafi'ee generally follow in belief), they both believe in not making Ta'weel. (see Muqaddamah of Kitaab al-Tawhid of Imaam al-Maturide by Shaykh Fathullah Khaleef pgs.10-11). This is basically the view of the Ahlus sunnah Wal Jamaa.

As for ibn Taymiyah (RA) believing in the Sifaat of Allah without Ta'weel, the Shaykh is correct in his statement. (Fataawa ibn Taymiyah vol.6 pg.213; Cairo)

As for the statement of the Shaykh that the Ahlus Sunnah are confined to those that follow the thoughts of ibn Taymiyah, this is incorrect as explained above.

The scholars of the Maturidee and Ash'ari schools of thought who came after the founders of these schools adopted the view of making Ta'weel to combat the deviated sects of their respective eras. But, these scholars knew the limits of making Ta'weel.

We advise that we maintain the belief of the Salaf, i.e. we don't make Ta'weel because:

1) This was the belief of Imaam al-Maturidee (and we are Maturidees)

2) The latter Ulama only made Ta'weel because of Dhuroorah (i.e. necessity in combating the deviated sects).

3) These Ulama who made Ta'weel, they knew the limits of Ta'weel and we sometimes might exceed the bounds which will lead us to Kufr.

We should also be aware that not all the beliefs of ibn Taymiyah are in accordance with the Ahlus-Sunnah. We should remain cautious.

Shaykh Taqi-u-ddin Ahmad ibn Taymiyah was a prominent Aalim (scholar) of Deen. Shaykh Taqi-u-ddin had his independent views on many matters based on his vast knowledge and research. It is incorrect for non-scholars and non-academics to pass a judgment especially on such learned people. They should fear Allah and abstain from engaging themselves in such discussions. Differences of opinion is a salient feature among the Ulama-e-Haqq (true scholars).
And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

**Muawiyah** · 26-08-2005, 09:40 AM

look at the sentence between pointno.3 & the standard "It's not for the awam to speak of such matters paragraph"

**LogicLover** · 31-08-2005, 02:58 PM

The beliefs of the Ahlus Sunnah in terms of Allah's Names and Attributes constitute 4 aspects:

We do not deny
We do not distort
We do not ask how and
We do not compare them (Asma us Siffat) with Allah's creation.

Thus the matter becomes simple for all Muslims.

**faqir** · 31-08-2005, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Harris Ibn Qureshi

Asalaam Alaikum

I recently got this link, it is answered by mufti Ebrahim Desai. Here in is answer he basicaly said the making taweel is only for the scholars and has accepted ibn Tamiya's Aqeed Wasitiya (thats what it seems) Cause from my understanding Ibn tamiya (may allah be pleased with him) is a literalist and has taweel should not be made. So basicaly ahul sunnah accept ibn tamiya's aqaid?

Brother, I am not sure how you reached the above conclusion based on the comments of Mufti Desai.

First of all, where does he say that he accepts shaykh Ibn Taymiyya's RH Aqeedah?

In fact, he clearly states:

"We should also be aware that not all the beliefs of ibn Taymiyah are in accordance with the Ahlus-Sunnah. We should remain cautious."

As for the avoidance of figurative interpretation and the preference of Tafwid or comittal of the meaning to Allah swt [his chosen position], this falls into line with the Matuiridi and Ashari schools but they allow those qualified to do ta'wil when there is a need to refute the innovators - a position also in keeping with that of many of the Salaf [see the thread on ta'wil]. It is important to note also that Sh. Ibn Taymiyya rejected absolute Tafwid and his stance was not in line with the first madhab which Mufti Desai mentions and prefers.

Referring to shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah RH, mufti Desai states:

It is incorrect for non-scholars and non-academics to pass a judgment especially on such learned people.

Of course, no one would argue with that - but Alhamdolillah the Ulema have refuted his incorrect stances and beliefs where it was required - and many examples of this have been provided on this forum.

Wasalam.

**LogicLover** · 01-09-2005, 03:53 PM

Brother Harris! you wanted a clarification as to whether 'anyone' can clarify the matter in the light of Mufti Desai's answer. I am not a scholar, but in terms of aqeedah matters, I can not blind follow. The reason, I have adopted the aqeedah as explained by ibn Taymya r.a. is because it makes sense. I am saying this not becasue, I am qualified to judge a scholar, but I can not do what the Jews and Christians do to their Rabbis and priests (blind follow in their wrong doings).

Mufti Desai states ''As for ibn Taymiyah (RA) believing in the Sifaat of Allah without Ta'weel, the Shaykh is correct in his statement.'' So really, according to the Mufti, understanding the Aqeedah as explained by ibn Taymiyah is not wrong. What I have summarised in my previous post is understood to be the Aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah. If one does not make taweel of the Asma us Siffat, one can not - deny, distort, ask how and liken Allah's Names and Attributes. Because, no interpretation (taweel) would lead to these obvious conclusions as per the aqeedah of Ahlus Sunnah.

Now, talking about the Aqeedah madhab of Mufti Desai, according to him ''The Madhab of majority of the Salaf and a few Mutakallimeen is to believe in the reality of the Sifaat of Allah in accordance to whatever is appropriate for Allah. The apparent known meanings of those Sifaat are not meant. No Ta'weel (interpretation) should be made in the matter.''

I will now try to point out some apparent contradictions in the statement of Mufti Desai; please do not take any offense because I do not blind follow him, nor am I obliged to. If one ''is to believe in the reality of the Sifaat of Allah in accordance to whatever is appropriate for Allah'', how come one is prepared to say ''The apparent known meanings of those Sifaat are not meant''. This is taweel of Allah's statements. One can not say ''however Allah has described Himself, He does not mean what He has revealed to us''? Of course, Allah is free from all what is being claimed about Him (that whatever Allah has revealed, the apparent meanings are not what is meant). I will use the Mufti's next sentence to refute this 'No Ta'weel (interpretation) should be made in the matter'.

In fact, Mufti Desai states ''As for Imaam al-Maturidee (who the Hanafis generally follow in beliefs) and Imaam al-Awzaa'ee (who the Shaafi'ee generally follow in belief), they both believe in not making Ta'weel''. Therefore, according to this statement alone, one should not say ''The apparent known meanings of those Sifaat are not meant'' as a statement of Aqeedah.

To conclude, brother Harris, I am quoting from you ''Brother, I am not sure how you reached the above conclusion based on the comments of Mufti Desai. First of all, where does he say that he accepts shaykh Ibn Taymiyya's RH Aqeedah?''

The answer is - Mufti Desai states that ibn Taymiya is correct in not making taweel - so I do not (make taweel) and have reached the logical conclusion (as explained by ibn Taymiya) of 4 facts - do not deny, do not distort, do not ask how and do not compare with the creation.
Mufti Desai has not stated that he accepts the Aqeeda of ibn Taymiya r.a., but ibn Taymiya's position of not making taweel conforms to that of what Mufti Desai seems to have adopted (though the Mufti seems to have contracdicted himself by saying ''The apparent known meanings of those Sifaat are not meant'')

Allah knows best.

**Harris Ibn Qureshi** · 03-09-2005, 01:23 AM

Originally Posted by faqir

Brother, I am not sure how you reached the above conclusion based on the comments of Mufti Desai.

First of all, where does he say that he accepts shaykh Ibn Taymiyya's RH Aqeedah?

In fact, he clearly states:

"We should also be aware that not all the beliefs of ibn Taymiyah are in accordance with the Ahlus-Sunnah. We should remain cautious."

As for the avoidance of figurative interpretation and the preference of Tafwid or comittal of the meaning to Allah swt [his chosen position], this falls into line with the Matuiridi and Ashari schools but they allow those qualified to do ta'wil when there is a need to refute the innovators - a position also in keeping with that of many of the Salaf [see the thread on ta'wil]. It is important to note also that Sh. Ibn Taymiyya rejected absolute Tafwid and his stance was not in line with the first madhab which Mufti Desai mentions and prefers.

Referring to shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah RH, mufti Desai states:

It is incorrect for non-scholars and non-academics to pass a judgment especially on such learned people.

Of course, no one would argue with that - but Alhamdolillah the Ulema have refuted his incorrect stances and beliefs where it was required - and many examples of this have been provided on this forum.

Wasalam.

I find the brothers from sunnipath are strongly opposed to ibn tamiya (ra). And that scholars from the deobandis stance although they may not agree with all he has done, do sympathize with him and hold him in high regard.. An example can be found in Mufti muhammed ibn adam fatwa compared to that of sh nuh.

**Harris Ibn Qureshi** · 03-09-2005, 04:11 AM

Mufti ebrahim desai said we should not make taweel, and hence ibn tamiya doesn't do taweel and he is correct.

Yes he said all his beliefs were not correct for exmaple all the muslims should follow his aqaid and disregard the others (because of philosphy being added etc). My understanding of this fatwaa was that all 3 are correct, and that aqaid of ibn tamiya is correct as long as we don't disregard the 3 other aqeedas and don't make taweel on allah's attributes...