Muslims practising female circumcision

[SASLAMS]

Bro, I never heard about this, and I live right here in SE Asia... though, maybe the ladies keep it hush-hush from the boys?

possible, do you guys also get circusised when you 7 years old as in indonesia.

[mwinyi]

I just remembered reading an anthropology article about the Bushmen in the Kalahari, specifically the "Hottentots". Apparently most Hottentot women have extraordinarily large skin (what is it called, labia? prepuce?) that actually extends beyond the faraj like a small apron, and the anthropologists were astonished. They call it the "Hottentot apron".

So it is conceivable that in African women, some trimming may be desirable, but not the degree of mutilation mentioned as Type II or Type III or IV.

See you are continuing with demonisation of Africans except now you have moved to Namibia which is largely a non Muslim country (has very few Muslims) because there isnt much daawa in those parts of Africa.

Now why would you generalise African women in particular here?

but more importantly statistically FGM is not prevalent in Namibia as it is in predominantly Muslim countries in Africa but last but not least I mentioned it is practised in several countries around the world so its not an African or Arab or Asian problem.

Will you kindly give me the name of the anthropology article you have read on the subject please

wasalaam

[mwinyi]

Bro, I never heard about this, and I live right here in SE Asia... though, maybe the ladies keep it hush-hush from the boys?

If you checked the links I posted before you will find that its practised in SE Asian countries

A bit of research you would just find it

[SASLAMS]

See you are continuing with demonisation of Africans except now you have moved to Namibia which is largely a non Muslim country (has very few Muslims) because there isnt much daawa in those parts of Africa.

Now why would you generalise African women in particular here?

but more importantly statistically FGM is not prevalent in Namibia as it is in predominantly Muslim countries in Africa but last but not least I mentioned it is practised in several countries around the world so its not an African or Arab or Asian problem.

Will you kindly give me the name of the anthropology article you have read on the subject please

wasalaam

actual akhi, this is so. & the "apron" in some cultures are actualy praised so girls are made to stretch them (they say that the extra skin grabs hold of the man & he will never leave you). & a large part of the kalahari is also in South Africa.

[Aseatic]

possible, do you guys also get circusised when you 7 years old as in indonesia.

We tend to get circumcised a bit late nowadays, about ten or eleven, sometimes twelve is the norm. It's possible girls get done very young and without much ceremony.

[Aseatic]

Salam, Bro Mwinyi,

I did not intend to give offence. The "Hottentot apron", or more correctly "elongated labia" can be read on Wikipedia and many sites.

Human beings are very various, that is all I am saying. We Malays have our own peculiarities, like a tendency to "latah", we come in many shades of brown from Chinese-yellow to Tamil-dark, in Sumatra some of my brethren have blue eyes. Seriously! My noticing the peculiar features in other races is simply acknowledging how various we all are, not asserting superiority or inferiority in any way.

I'd post a link but you have to guard your eyes, it has a picture of a nude Khoi-san woman and also of the female faraj with the elongated labia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_labia

Elongated labia (also known as Sinus pudoris and albeit nonmedically, as khoikhoi apron or hottentot apron) is a possibly genetic feature of certain Khoisan groups, whose female members develop relatively elongated labia minora, hanging up to four inches outside their vulva when they are standing in an upright position.

(warning! I'd rather you take it on trust that it exists, rather than look at the pictures...)

[Muhammad Shareef]

Asalaam aleykum Warahmatullah

Brothers and Sisters

I know some mght feel embrassed about this issue but would like to know what does Islam (Qur'an or Sunna) that allows this practise.

I know some would come and say ohhh some non Muslim countries also practise this but my focus of discussion is not on non-Muslims but rather Muslims.

Its a practise that is widely done in Oman, Somalia, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, India (Muslims parts), Sudan, Egypt (where 96%) of girls have been genetically mutilated (Behind circumcision lies the belief in these societies that, by removing parts of girls' external genitals organs, sexual desire is minimized) and I remember one of the scholars there Sheik Youssef Badri even endorsed this practise.

Some defend this for cultural reasons, but last time I checked we Muslims are told that ISLAM COMES FIRST BEFORE CULTURES so why would people who are Muslims practise this Female Genital Mutilation?


I stand to be corrected and I hope to learn alot on the subject

wabillahi Tafiq

The circumcising of girls is not a sunna in Islam. Its origin goes back to the ancient kingdom of Egypt where women were circumcised in such a manner that the entire clitoris was removed. One of the proofs that present community were either apart of the ancient Egyptian civilization or were in some way ruled by them, is the existence of female circumcision among them. This explains the prevalence of this practice among many sub-saharan African ethnicities, as well as those Arabs and other ethnic groups who were under the rule of Egypt stretching as far as present day Iraq. Those communities which do not have a formal ritual of female circumcision comprising of a rights of passage for young girls, means that that community were simply under the sovereignty of ancient Egypt took up their customs without knowing the reason. This is the case with the Arabs, who to this day do know why they do it, and trace it to some archaic notion that it makes women more chaste. However, in those communities which were apart of the ancient Egyptian civilization, today, they have a ritualistic, secretive, initiation in which girls undergo a rights of passage through female circumcision. Now, this is controlled solely by the elder women of the society and not men. This is the case throughout many ethnic groups in sub-saharan African, and it is more so with the Sudanese, who have lost the ancient rights of passage accompanying this custom, but it is solely in the hands of the elderly women of the family. Not the men. This is important, when trying to eradicate this practice.
As for how Islam views female circumcision, I have found that some former scholars and many modern scholars, especially men tend to yield to local customs when those customs involve a perceived control or containing of women. Men tend to close a blind eye to those kinds of heretical innovations, as long as their aim is to control women and keep them inside of a 'zariba'. However, having said that one scholar who gave a balanced look at this issue was Shehu Uthman ibn Fuduye`, in his Ihya 's-Sunna 'l-Muhammadiyya was Ikhmad 'l-Bid`at 's-Shaytaaniyya whre he said:

The legal judgment of circumcision is that it is a sunna for male boys. It is the cutting of the skin which conceals the penis. As for girls it is recommended and it is called al-khifaad. It is the incising of the lower part of the skin which is at the highest part of the vagina. However the young girl is not be mutilated! This is in conformity with what Umm `Atiyya said,

اخْفِضِي وَلاَ تُنْهِكِي، فَإِنَّهُ أَسْرَى لِلْوَجْهِ وأَحْظَى عِنْدَ الزَّوْجِ

"Scratch her do not mutilate her. This is the more valid course and more enjoyable when with the husband." This means do not over do it when making the incision. What she meant by "the more valid course" is that the skin is incised length wise without separating the skin from the vagina. What she meant by "more enjoyable" is more pleasurable during intercourse. This is because the skin (over the clitoris), like the penis, becomes taut just at her climax. The sensual passions strengthens due to that. If it is not like that then the effect will be reverse. It says in the al-Madkhal, "The sunna in circumcising males is to expose (the penis), while with women it is to conceal (the clitoris)." There is a difference of opinion with regard to women. Should this apply to all woman as a whole or should there be a distinction between the methods of the east the west. For the women of the east are expected to undergo circumcision in the belief that their clitoris is unusually large by nature, while the women of the west are not expected to undergo circumcision.

Thus, the Shehu was forward looking on this subject and did not project a tendency by some Islamic authorities to allow the mutilation of girls in order to control her sexuality. In fact, the sunna is to abandon any and all forms of bodily mutilation. Female clitoral mutilation is a violation of the sunna.

[alfatiha]

I am wondering at the discrepancy of it being wajib in mazhab Shafii and nobody knowing about it in Malaysia and Indonesia, which are almost all Shafii except the local Muslim Indians.

I heard that Imam Shafii had one set of rulings when he was in Iraq ("Old Shafii"), and made another set of rulings ("New Shafii") when he moved to Egypt and discovered some Hadiths he didn't know. Were the rulings in the two sets different for female circumcision? Maybe we follow "Old Shafii" or something?

they do it when the girls are babies. The circumcision for boys are done when they much older. That's one reason why it is rarely mentioned because it is already been done.

[SASLAMS]

The circumcising of girls is not a sunna in Islam. Its origin goes back to the ancient kingdom of Egypt where women were circumcised in such a manner that the entire clitoris was removed. One of the proofs that present community were either apart of the ancient Egyptian civilization or were in some way ruled by them, is the existence of female circumcision among them. This explains the prevalence of this practice among many sub-saharan African ethnicities, as well as those Arabs and other ethnic groups who were under the rule of Egypt stretching as far as present day Iraq. Those communities which do not have a formal ritual of female circumcision comprising of a rights of passage for young girls, means that that community were simply under the sovereignty of ancient Egypt took up their customs without knowing the reason. This is the case with the Arabs, who to this day do know why they do it, and trace it to some archaic notion that it makes women more chaste. However, in those communities which were apart of the ancient Egyptian civilization, today, they have a ritualistic, secretive, initiation in which girls undergo a rights of passage through female circumcision. Now, this is controlled solely by the elder women of the society and not men. This is the case throughout many ethnic groups in sub-saharan African, and it is more so with the Sudanese, who have lost the ancient rights of passage accompanying this custom, but it is solely in the hands of the elderly women of the family. Not the men. This is important, when trying to eradicate this practice.
As for how Islam views female circumcision, I have found that some former scholars and many modern scholars, especially men tend to yield to local customs when those customs involve a perceived control or containing of women. Men tend to close a blind eye to those kinds of heretical innovations, as long as their aim is to control women and keep them inside of a 'zariba'. However, having said that one scholar who gave a balanced look at this issue was Shehu Uthman ibn Fuduye`, in his Ihya 's-Sunna 'l-Muhammadiyya was Ikhmad 'l-Bid`at 's-Shaytaaniyya whre he said:



Thus, the Shehu was forward looking on this subject and did not project a tendency by some Islamic authorities to allow the mutilation of girls in order to control her sexuality. In fact, the sunna is to abandon any and all forms of bodily mutilation. Female clitoral mutilation is a violation of the sunna.

in which section did the egyptians rule Arabia & before islam the Sahara desert was never crossed so how did this anchient egyptian ritual reach sub sahara, why would the hadeeth of Rasulluah SAWS say "when the 2 circumcised parts meet"- is this hadeeth refering to two males having relations or does it imply that nabi SAWS knew that khitnah is taking place for both genders. when the shafi' madhab makes something wajeeb you know that they base it on an authentic hadeeth. pls dont just generalise

[Muhammad Shareef]

in which section did the egyptians rule Arabia & before islam the Sahara desert was never crossed so how did this anchient egyptian ritual reach sub sahara, why would the hadeeth of Rasulluah SAWS say "when the 2 circumcised parts meet"- is this hadeeth refering to two males having relations or does it imply that nabi SAWS knew that khitnah is taking place for both genders. when the shafi' madhab makes something wajeeb you know that they base it on an authentic hadeeth. pls dont just generalise

Actually if you read my post carefully, I did not generalize, I quoted a scholar quite explicitly which stated that:

The legal judgment of circumcision is that it is a sunna for male boys. It is the cutting of the skin which conceals the penis. As for girls it is recommended and it is called al-khifaad. It is the incising of the lower part of the skin which is at the highest part of the vagina. However the young girl is not be mutilated! This is in conformity with what Umm `Atiyya said,

اخْفِضِي وَلاَ تُنْهِكِي، فَإِنَّهُ أَسْرَى لِلْوَجْهِ وأَحْظَى عِنْدَ الزَّوْجِ

"Scratch her do not mutilate her. This is the more valid course and more enjoyable when with the husband." This means do not over do it when making the incision. What she meant by "the more valid course" is that the skin is incised length wise without separating the skin from the vagina. What she meant by "more enjoyable" is more pleasurable during intercourse. This is because the skin (over the clitoris), like the penis, becomes taut just at her climax. The sensual passions strengthens due to that. If it is not like that then the effect will be reverse. It says in the al-Madkhal, "The sunna in circumcising males is to expose (the penis), while with women it is to conceal (the clitoris)."

True the Shafi' do hold that circumcision for women is an obligation, however, does that mean that the entire clitoris of the women is to be mutilated? Of course not. It would be absurd to assume that Imam as-Shafi' would hold that a woman is obligated to be mutilated in the light of what Umm Atiya said. There is different opinions among the fuqaha regarding whether it is obligatory, sunnan or recommended for women to be circumcised. However, there is no disagreement among them regarding whether the clitoris of women should be cut off. The description of the circumcision for women is simply an incision upon the skin which covers the clitoris and not to cut off that cover or to cut off the clitoris. This type of circumcision is called in Sudan and Egypt 'pharoanic'. Why because it was the practice of the people of ancient Egypt.

Now as for the saharan desert not being crossed prior to Islam, is simply historical fallacy. The entire history of ancient Egypt include the wars and commerce which stretched from the mouth of the Nile up to Sennar in present day Sudan. Some scholars such as Inikori and Diop indicate that commerce, trade stretched from ancient Egypt all the way to Punt in modern day Somalia. Every single major ethnicity in West Africa trace their origins back to the Nile valley. This is true for the Bambara, the Yoruba, the Soninke, the Wolof, the Mandinka and many others. Their oral traditions corroborate this and modern academics also verify this. Diop and Inikori showed that religious customs, but more importantly there are clear linguistic markers between the language of ancient Egypt and many West African languages.

I never said that the ancient Egyptians ruled the Arabian peninsular. What I said was that the Egyptians ruled as far as the lands of Iraq. But this does not preclude that Egyptian influence did not spread into the Arabian peninsular. especially when kingdoms further removed from the Arabian peninsular left its traces there, such as Persia and Rome.

It is well known and has been reported in the sound prophetic traditions that some of the deities which were kept in the Ka`ba in Mecca which Prophet Muhammad destroyed were from sub-saharan Africa. If devotees can bring their deities from sub saharan Africa and posit them in the Ka`ba, it is more plausible that other customs such as circumcision can also transmigrate to the region as well.

the point is that there is NOTHING islamic regarding the mutiliation of the clitoris of women - not even in the opinion of Imam as-Shafi who said it was an obligation for women to be circumcised.