Question about intercession at the graveside

[Abu Yunus]

i am sorry but you need to explain what relevance 'earliest mujtahid' has in this context because to me it is irrelevant how early or late the fatwa is given.
why does it need to be 'earliest'?
the earliest sahaba you can follow is Bilal ibn al-Harith ra - if not, why?
also read the links here.

Okay - before anyone continues to mention the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith as evidence, I want to ask the following question:

Who was the earliest authority to state that, in the narration of Malik al-Dar, the unnamed person asking for intercession was the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith?

Then we can address why I consider early rulings to be important.

[faqir]

Imam Al-Tabari I guess : http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogs...l-albanis.html
Anyway this is pointless... Salam 'alaikum

[Abu Yunus]

Imam Al-Tabari I guess : http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogs...l-albanis.html
Anyway this is pointless... Salam 'alaikum

You guess?

Imam al-Tabari may indeed have recorded a narration from Sayf ibn Umar al-Tamimi, but that does not address the issue of interest.

Did Imam al-Tabari actually state that, in the narration of Malik al-Dar, the unnamed person asking for intercession was the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith?

I don't see evidence that he did in that link.

Wa alaikum us-salam.

[faqir]

check his tarikh under the year 18 AH which is where sh. abul Hasan said he has seen sayf's narration.

and I have just been looking a little bit deeper into this and have noted that Sayf's narration - naming explicitly the fact that the Sahabi who went to the blessed Qabr - Bilal ibn Harith al-Muzani, was also mentioned by these famous Historians and well regarded Muhaddithin:

Ibn Kathir in his al-Bidaya
Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari in his al-Kamil fi al Ta'rikh
Abu Ja'far al-Tabari in his Ta'rikh(see under the year 18 AH)

you can pm him via marifah's forums for further details.

was-salam

[Abu Yunus]

You made the "guess", so the onus is on you to bring the evidence.

May Allah reward you for your help.

Was-salam

[Abu Yunus]

As-salamu alaikum, Faqir.

yes, check the sticky in the fiqh section of marifah's forums.

Looking through that list of articles, on this matter of asking intercession directly from the dead or absent, do you follow any scholar's ruling from before the 9th and 10th century after Hijrah?

[faqir]

`alaikum salam.
Yes, Bilal ibn al-Harith ra. Unfortunately I don't have the time to look through Imam al-Tabari's Tarikh but I do think there is a copy online somewhere....

[Abu Yunus]

`alaikum salam.
Yes, Bilal ibn al-Harith ra. Unfortunately I don't have the time to look through Imam al-Tabari's Tarikh but I do think there is a copy online somewhere....

Wa alaikum us-salam.

You are skipping the issue.

As mentioned, the name of the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith is not even mentioned in the relevant narration (of Malik al-Dar).

I asked: Who was the earliest authority to state that, in the narration of Malik al-Dar, the unnamed person asking for intercession was the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith?

You made the "guess" that it was Imam al-Tabari, but you have not brought the evidence for this. Just because Imam al-Tabari recorded a narration from Sayf ibn Umar al-Tamimi does not entail (obviously!) Imam al-Tabari actually stated that, in the narration of Malik al-Dar, the unnamed person asking for intercession was the Companion Bilal Ibn al-Harith.

The earliest authorities that you actually cite on this Istighathah issue seem to date to around the 9th and 10th centuries after Hijrah, frequently with an Azhar link which is interesting in itself.

[faqir]

I am not skipping the issue at all. The only reason I said 'I guess' was because I do not know if any earlier historians had also mentioned the narration of Sayf.

Shaykh Abul Hasan had said: "I have just been looking a little bit deeper into this and have noted that Sayf's narration - naming explicitly the fact that the Sahabi who went to the blessed Qabr - Bilal ibn Harith al-Muzani, was also mentioned by these famous Historians and well regarded Muhaddithin:

Ibn Kathir in his al-Bidaya
Ibn al-Athir al-Jazari in his al-Kamil fi al Ta'rikh
Abu Ja'far al-Tabari in his Ta'rikh(see under the year 18 AH)"

So, he has seen Sayf's narration naming the sahabi as Bilal ibn al-Harith in Abu Ja'far al-Tabari's Tarikh under the year 18H. Admittedly I have not checked this myself but maybe if I have some time i'll try and locate it for you. Or are you saying that even if he has narrated this incident in his Tarikh it does not mean he considers it to be true?

was-salam

[faqir]

here it is online
http://www.almeshkat.net/books/open.php?cat=13&book=620