A debate with an Atheist has shaken my already weak belief. Help me.

[Maripat]

Oh sorry about that, I had thought I had reopened the thread. It's open now.

Sister I have a name change request here.

[sudoku]

Done.

[Maripat]

[amani77]

Whether anyone understands this or not, the fact remains, for the majority of us, there is no point in arguing with non-believers (be it atheist or otherwise), nor is there any point in reading through anti-Islamic literature (be it websites, printed pamphlets, whatever). The second we end up on a website where you start reading what seems to be an anti-Islamic thought or sentence, we need to hit the "back" button and get out of there. Don't go telling yourself "I just want to read this for curiosity purposes and to see how I can counter-argue it". No, we are too weak. I know I am. Leave it to the "pros" (we ain't them).

Same goes for reading texts of other religions, such as the Bible and Torah, or Christianity leaflets which they love to pass around, etc. Not until one has a deep, deep, deep understanding of the texts of Islam, and even then it can be risky.

I learned this from experience myself. Originally, when I, Alhamdulillah, started trying to practice the deen more and more, my inclination always was to 'argue'/'debate' with my friends who include(d) atheists/Christians/etc. I thought I was going to conquer the world, converting one non-believer at a time. Eventually I learned that that was not the case, that I was not equipped to make these arguments and debates, that I needed to take a chill pill until, Insha'Allah, I can have enough knowledge, iman, and yaqeen myself, before I go trying to 'convert' others. Alhamdulillah, I never had a problem with my own yaqeen and belief in Allah , as Allah already made me go through the "exploratory" phase at a younger age where I actually found Allah and came to know that He exists, rather than just 'believing' He exists because that's what I was brought up to believe. So, the point is that, Insha'Allah, none of these 'arguments' and 'debates' hindered my belief in Allah, but yet I stepped back, because I came to realize, that I'm not ready to do all this at this point in time, and if Allah ever wishes to use me to deliver hidayat to a non-believer, then Insha'Allah I will do what He has decided for me to do, by His grace.

Also, Alhamdulillah, I understood more and more the fact that it is Allah who gives hidayat (guidance). Even the Prophet could not give hidayat, he could only 'educate' and lead by example (and oh, what a beautiful, beautiful, perfect example he was). If the Prophet could give hidayat, then he would have done so for his own uncle Abu Jahal, who died without iman, among others. Hidayat comes from Allah , and, though He certainly does not need any of His creation's help to give hidayat to someone; in His infinite mercy, He may choose to use any one of His slaves as a means to give hidayat to someone. In the process, this slave(s) being used to 'deliver' the hidayat ends up earning a tremendous amount of reward, Insha'Allah. But, it wasn't the slave who gave the hidayat to the non-believer and converted him/her to Islam, it was solely Allah swt Who did so.

I don't talk to any of these people anymore, who I mentioned above, because talking to them or hanging out with them only 'irritates' me because I want them to feel what I feel towards Allah, and to realize that He is our one and only Creator; but that I am too weak to make them understand that. Additionally, the comments they may make against Allah and His messengers (nauzubillah) only mess with me further as far as 'irritating' me, not messing with my iman, Alhamdulillah. Also, even if you amongst your non-believing friends decide that there will be no discussion of 'religion' when you hang out, it still comes up one way or another.

I know I've said now on more than one occasion that "it does not mess with my iman". Alhamdulillah, may Allah swt always keep it so. Ameen. However, I am not ready to take the risk and so I step back. I don't know what's going to happen if I continue arguing with these non-believers on a regular basis, so I rather choose to play it safe at this point in time rather than risking something 'bad' for myself and my iman & yaqeen. May Allah protect me and all of us. Ameen.



There is a reason that Islam does not allow close friendships with non-believers. We are to be kind to them, help them and watch out for them if they are in need, conduct any daily affairs with them (business, etc), but (as far as I understand), we are not to take them as close friends. There is a reason. Whether we understand it or not, there is a reason, hence we should follow it, since we claim to 'follow' the religion so much (that's what we're on SF for, right?). May Allah forgive me and all of us. Ameen.

Further, with all due respect, from what I understand, you (OP) used the term "him", and your user info says "sister". Hence, you should not be talking to this brother, whether on Facebook or otherwise. That was probably your first mistake. Again, forgive me for saying this, because I need to act on everything I say the most myself, and I need to fix myself more than anyone else, so trust me I am not trying to be arrogant or anything. But, it needs to be said. Follow the rules of our deen, which means you cannot talk to strange men, which means you cannot talk to a guy on FB chat or elsewhere, atheist or Muslim. You say you're not feeling in your salat what you should be feeling, that you're not feeling the connection with Allah swt. Subhan'Allah, we all have this issue these days, some more than others, as this is accepted as one of the main, if not the main reason for the downfall of the Muslim ummah (abandoning/neglecting/improper salat). So, my point is (and again, I am no one to be saying this), how about trying to cut sin out from your life, such as talking to guys on facebook (even if you 'think' you're doing so to make 'dawah'), and maybe you will start to notice an improvement in your salat and other Islamic activities?

It is only Allah who can make anything happen for any of us, so let us all make plenty of dua to Him to grant us all firm yaqeen, iman, conviction, and faith. The yaqeen, iman, conviction, and faith which our ummah once had during the time of the Prophet (SAW) and the Sahaba (RA). Ameen.

Lastly, I'd like to end this post with the same thought with which I started it: Whether anyone understands this or not, the fact remains, for the majority of us, there is no point in arguing with non-believers (be it atheist or otherwise), nor is there any point in reading through anti-Islamic literature (be it websites, printed pamphlets, whatever).

Please forgive me for anything I said wrong. May Allah forgive me for anything which I said wrong. Ameen. Please remember my family and I in your duas and Allah knows best.

great advice!

[Maripat]

Bismillah'
First of all that sister is naiev. She forgot the basic rule that speak to the people at their level.
I for one do not feel any sympathy for the likes of her deluded in their little knowlege and generally full of c**p and relegious zeal.

Lovely post.
And thank you for teaching how to handle the word c**p. I twice I earned the good will of moderators on account on incompetence on this point.

Some one who is intelectually bankrupt deserve to get beaten and I find it funny when muslim tries to use science as some sort of defence. In most case it is really pathetic, some muslim have fallen for the same trap as that of christian and comes across as stupid as them.

Though I can not make out the implication completely but some of the things are agreeable.

The likes of Zakir Naik are partly to blame for the rise of stupidy. I suppose the evenglical interpreation of islam is partly to blame.

There are some good points with his activity.
Whether god overcomes that bad or other way round is a question that is not clear. personally I feel his good points score high over his bad points. Hence I remain an admirer of him. Like yours truly he makes mistakes but they seem to far less.

the aeithist are generally stupid and ill informed, ....

The trouble is that far too many of them are educated, informed, intelligent as well as prepared. What to do about them?

... ill educated muslim in deen and in relegious phliosophy are no better.

http://thedebateinitiative.com/
http://hamzatzortzis.blogspot.com/

You do have a point but the question again remains whether we can leave the field open to them?
In that eventuality many people start believing in their stance - not a pleasant out come. Far too many Muslims are living in the Macaulian frame of mind. We got to worry about them. The way Shia youth is falling head over heels for kufr this Macaulian Muslim population is very vulnerable to the machinations of aggressive kuffar.

Those who think relegion is a tool to beat others with or for ego trip havn't understood what islam is about.

Thank you for saying that. Yours truly had always felt very uneasy about this debate technology. It was so unnerving to witness attitudes where a person will adopt a stand in a debate just to win the debate! . Debate is a life style and attitude and culture that is unproductive but it is promoted as desirable. Desirable it is not but one feels very awkward about it when it has to be faced nevertheless. may be we should spend some time in arguing against this and demolishing this fortress of deception.

Perhaps your dissapointment has more to do with your ego taking a hammering and if so this should be a wake up call for understanding the deeper nature of islam.

Why focus on a person - we seem to be pretty inclined to cater to our egos. Unfortunately we do not have even a thread about how to annihilate this ego and how to detach ourselves from our own opinion. far too many time we end up fighting with our dear brothers and sisters for our point of view which is purely subjective and might have no relation with the truth that is Islam.

Connect yourself to a seassoned qualified scholar and focus on your relation with Allah, the most sublime.
someone giving you polluted water and asking you to drink has a natural side effect. Hence drink water from where it suppose to be drunk from.

Allahualam

With you on that.

[uber_mensch]

I agree there is no point arguing with atheists. Understand their psychology; they engage from a position of kufr, rejection, so their goal in debating with you is to disprove islam and prove themselves right, not to find out the truth.

[Abdul1234]

I agree there is no point arguing with atheists. Understand their psychology; they engage from a position of kufr, rejection, so their goal in debating with you is to disprove islam and prove themselves right, not to find out the truth.

In addition to this most of them will use dodgy semantics and verbal trickery and false appeals to a supposed unique rationality that they claim atheists have a unique possession of in their discussions whilst the Muslims try to speak in a straight honest way.

When you are arguing with an atheist (especially one who has come to attack Islam due to their involvement in some anti-religious
secular fundamentalist group),

as well as benefiting from the fact that the popular media's translation of the the intellectual resources produced by western
academia are done according to secular fundamentalist ideology, they also have well organized intellectual support from funded anti-Islam groups which produce further resources that include lists of 'attack questions' to be used against Muslims.

The fact that these questions are a mixture of attacks based upon mistranslations, misinterpretations, distortions, lies calumnies and very ironically also attacks upon Islam based upon fairytale Israyliat traditions with Judeo Christian origins (as well as attacks over things which Muslims are simply never going to agree with them) isn't always easily perceived by the less knowledgeable brothers and sisters who set themselves up for this Jihad of the tongue and mind.

This is one big reason why I cannot understand why Sunniforum allows self appointed secular fundamentalist missionaries airtime on a forum that is for Sunni Muslims to learn, find out and discuss things?

[Abdul1234]

The likes of Zakir Naik are partly to blame for the rise of stupidy. I suppose the evenglical interpreation of islam is partly to blame.

poor old Zakir Naik, I don't think he is responsible for anyone but himself and he does some good work.

Those who think relegion is a tool to beat others with or for ego trip havn't understood what islam is about.

this is very true and likewise it applies to the Muslims who habitually attack other groups of Muslims over minor differences.

At the end of the day its what is called narcissistic groups syndrome, which in simple terms is often caused by individuals puffing themselves up by praising and idolizing the group they belong to and attributing to it all good qualities - whilst attributing all bad qualities to other groups who they identify as being different from and inferior to them (which tends to be pretty much everyone). - Some Salafis and some traditional Muslims suffer from this sickness just as much as the various sects of Evangelical Christians and the sulfurous groups of Secular Fundamentalists tend to.

At the end of the day we even have to admit that Muslims are not totally good and Kaffirs are not totally bad, both of them are mixed in their qualities, but the Muslims are on average morally much better and they are the group that Allah will save whilst the kaffirs are those who he will punish.

However, when it comes to Islam itself it is totally good whilst essentially disbelief is totally bad, however this does not mean that all philosophies and ideologies of the disbelievers are totally bad, they are a mixture and we should not deny that which agrees with the truth of Islam from whatever source it comes - therefore we cannot say Communism, Christianity, Humanism or any of these philosophies are totally bad - just that they have some very bad points and some better ones - the Quran and sunnah being the judge over them.