Praying behind Mamatis is not permissible

[abdulwahhab]

I was listening to Ml. Ilyas Ghuman DB on his lecture on the Mamatis (which includes Wahhabis). He said it is not permissible to pray behind them. How could we justify praying behind Wahhabi imams from Saudi? Many Wahhabi imams have visited Deobandi madaaris and led salah there. How do we justify this? Is it because we do not know the explicit beliefs of these Wahhabi imams?

EDIT:
As for his reasoning, it was follows:

The Qur'an says that the shuhada are alive - in both body and spirit. It then means that the Prophets and Rasoolullah are also alive - in both body and spirit. The Wahhabis ask how is this possible because Rasoolullah did not talk about the anbiya عليهم السلام nor does the Qur'an do so when it talks about being physically alive. The reasoning that Ml. Ilyas used was very complex (it was a 2 hour lecture). An example to make it easier to understand is that there is no mention of 27 times reward for the imam of a jamaat. Does that mean the imam does not get the reward? Also, when asked about Ihsan by Jibril , Rasoolullah mentioned that it is to worship Allah as if you see Him and if one is not at that level, then it is to worship Him as if He sees you. Does that mean that that those who are of a higher level are not conscious of the fact that Allah sees them? Of course not. So, the logic follows that the lower is included in the higher so the reward of the shuhada, which is actually earned by following the steps of the anbiya , is also included in the reward for the anbiya عليهم السلام.

He also talked about the difference between يشعرون and يعلمون, where one refers to physical evidence that can be sensed and the other refers to belief. So, if Mamatis say that even the shuhada are not alive in the physical sense (and Mamatis and Wahhabis do say this), they are lying or are ignorant because the Qur'an says that they are still alive but not to our senses. So, even if we cannot sense life in them, we still must believe.

And then he says to reject such a thing is rejecting the Qur'an. He made a point not to use the ahadeeth as reference, even responding to a Mamati question in the question/answer period when someone mentioned that a hadeeth used by Hayatis/Ahlus Sunnah is "ahad" and "ahad" narrations cannot be used as proof (it was really funny to see such a question when no hadeeth was provided as evidence and Ml. Ilyas responded that does the questioner believe the Qur'an to be "ahad" as well). So, essentially, Mamatis reject the Qur'an.

[London786]

good point bro.

[At Tayyib]

The Imams of the Haramayn are not Mamatis.

[byellow200]

well the thing to do is to find out what exactly the imams stance on this issue is and then u can question ml.ghuman and find out. I think if you listen to some more of his bayaans things will start to become more clear.

[byellow200]

the mamati thing is a bit more wierd than the standard salafi issue. For one most salafi ulama believe in the punishment of the grave whereas the mamatis do not.

[al_Zayn]

the mamati thing is a bit more wierd than the standard salafi issue. For one most salafi ulama believe in the punishment of the grave whereas the mamatis do not.

Are you sure the mamatis do not believe in the punishment of the grave? any source for this statement?

[byellow200]

Are you sure the mamatis do not believe in the punishment of the grave? any source for this statement?

I discovered this through direct contact, but if you watch some of the older debates you will discover this. If you want me to dig out sources for you then give me some time.

They hide their aqeedah by the concept of jisme misale and asli and what not but when you quiz them for a few hours then the true colours atart to show.

[abdulwahhab]

The Imams of the Haramayn are not Mamatis.

Are you sure about this? One of the Madinah University professors gives a bayaan in Urdu at Masjid an-Nabawi . He is a typical Ahle Hadees guy, without the accusations against Imam Abu Haneefa . He said that Rasoolullah is dead in his grave (نعوذ با الله), saying that he was in the life of barzakh, which is what I've also heard Mamatis believe. According to them, the life of the barzakh is the life of everyone after death, but that there are levels within barzakh. They even believe that the shuhada are in the barzakh but at a higher level. They are not literally alive, according to them. According to Ml. Ilyas Ghuman DB, this is in clear violation of clear indication from the Qur'an that they are alive, not dead - it's just that we cannot sense them. Otherwise, there wouldn't be anything special about them if they're in barzakh like everyone else but just at a higher level and there would be no need in the Qur'an to say that they're alive and to forbid us from saying that they're dead.

Furthermore, I've heard many Salafis praising Mamatis over Deobandis, saying that the Mamatis are closer to them.

the mamati thing is a bit more wierd than the standard salafi issue. For one most salafi ulama believe in the punishment of the grave whereas the mamatis do not.

I've never heard this. I do know that the Hizb-ut-Tahrir doesn't believe in punishment in the grave.

[Abu_Tamim]

I was listening to Ml. Ilyas Ghuman DB on his lecture on the Mamatis (which includes Wahhabis). He said it is not permissible to pray behind them. How could we justify praying behind Wahhabi imams from Saudi? Many Wahhabi imams have visited Deobandi madaaris and led salah there. How do we justify this? Is it because we do not know the explicit beliefs of these Wahhabi imams?

So, it is not allowed to pray behind them in Hajj and Umrah also, I presume. Nor should it be allowed for expatriates to pray their 5 daily prayers behind Imams across Saudia?
He should have clarified. May Allah help the Ummah.

[byellow200]

So, it is not allowed to pray behind them in Hajj and Umrah also, I presume. Nor should it be allowed for expatriates to pray their 5 daily prayers behind Imams across Saudia?
He should have clarified. May Allah help the Ummah.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOgjIjvrUMM