hitting your wife

[Saqqib_Ali]

No, I said your COMMENT was sexist.

I'd like you to quote my comment which was sexist

......how you calmly and proudly responded justifying the striking of a woman.

Qur'an/hadith are quite clear on the matter so I can be confident in my answer and be proud that islam provides the right answer.

1. It is the Sunnah of the Messenger to NEVER hit the wife....................
A LAST RESORT for EXTREME..............

It is also the sunnah of the prophet(pbuh) to marry more than four wives, but we have to look at qur'an in the light of both sunnah and hadith. Not ignore hadith because we don't like what it says.

About being the last resort, like I said it's part of a process to discipline the wife, RATHER than a random slap when one feels like it.

Women have only now become VERY involved in business, economical affairs ..........................It has nothing to do with 2 women = 1 man. Because in many many verses God says "Men and women..." clearly showing there equality in God's eyes. These 2 for 1 is in wordily official cases.

from this you seem to be suggesting we should take the modern women as equal witnesses, but then you conclude that officially 2 vs 1 is ok. Two seem to contradict. Is islam doing injustice to these women who are "involved" and "educated" but still only count as half the witness of even an illiterate/uneducated man?

BUT AGAIN IT IS NOT OBLIGATORY FOR THE MAN TO BE "IN CHARGE",

Qur'an in this very verse 4:34 says that men ARE the gurdians of women, NOT "could be" NOT "should be", so reflect on that.

You yourself are pointing to the sunnah of the prophet when it suits you, SO in this case what was the sunnah of the prophet in terms of who should be in charge?

.......So in this regard i say to EVERY man follow the Messenger and stay away from EVER striking your wife, inshAllah. No more than that. ...

If any muslim gets a wife who is even a fraction of the caliber of the wives of the prophet, he wouldn't need to dare touch her. So this argument is weak here.

When the above Qur’an-verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must be best" (see Manar V, 74).

So here you accept the islamic stance that i'm trying to emphasise. But you still argue against it, from this I conclude your reason for involvement in this thread can't be islamiclaly influenced, rather to justify what the western kuffar have you believe about the "rights" of women. You clearly know what Islam says and clearly know i'm only paraphrasing the accepted opinions.

I'm also worried about your leaning on this issue especially as it stinks of shirk, especially because you yourself are saying " and what God has willed must be best" yet you refuse it and lean towards what "the heart of the prophet said"

Answer these two questions to see where you stand:
1.Did the prophet (pbuh) accept Allah's ruling on the " beating of a refractory wife"?
2.Do YOU accept Allah's ruling on the " beating of a refractory wife"?

Jazakallah

Allah and his Prophet(pbuh) know better

[Kuffs]

I'd like you to quote my comment which was sexist

"Is a father allowed to dicipline his children by hitting them?"

"If a parent discipline his child by hitting him, does that make him a bad parent?"

"When I was young, if I did anything wrong my father would tell me off, if I still didn't listen he would not speak to me, if he saw i was continuing to do something wrong he would hit me or threaten to beat me. was he wrong?"

These 3 quotes from your comment to me is sexist as you are implying WOMEN = CHILDREN under men. The Quran does not say they are like children, the Hadith do not say they are like children, so we can strike them. So therefore that is not the reason, you can try and justify the striking of women in this way, but it is not supported by the Quran or the Hadith as far as I know.

The Quran gives its reason on why men are BARELY allowed to strike the wife and that is because they are the protectors and providers and naturally if a man is doing the best he can giving her clothing the same value as his and food the same value as his, then women should respect and obey the husband, no problem with this as I stated before.

Qur'an/hadith are quite clear on the matter so I can be confident in my answer and be proud that islam provides the right answer.

Yes Islam provides the right answer, but you are justifying it in your own way, WOMEN = CHILDREN under men.

It is also the sunnah of the prophet(pbuh) to marry more than four wives, but we have to look at qur'an in the light of both sunnah and hadith. Not ignore hadith because we don't like what it says.

That's a weak argument. Because it is clear THAT WAS ONLY FOR THE MESSENGER (pbuh), it is CLEARLY stated in the Quran. No where in the Quran does it say "Muhammad did not beat his wives, but that is ONLY for him", on the contrary the Quran speaks clearly about kindness to wives and no harm to be done to them, the Hadith clearly speak about kindness to wives and no harm to be done to them. So this argument is against the whole concept of Quran and Hadith.

Quran stated more than 4 wives is allowed ONLY for Muhammad (pbuh)
Quran does not state Muhammad (pbuh) never hit his wives, that is ONLY for him.

About being the last resort, like I said it's part of a process to discipline the wife, RATHER than a random slap when one feels like it.

We all know this is the case, my point was you implying women are like children under men was derogative and incorrect, the Quran and Hadith are clear on the matter and scholars have already stated their arguments, which we take as they are much more knowledgeable. I NEVER said the Quran or Hadith wrong, i merely was disagreeing with the way you justify it, when the Quran and Hadith do not justify like that as far as i know.

from this you seem to be suggesting we should take the modern women as equal witnesses, but then you conclude that officially 2 vs 1 is ok. Two seem to contradict. Is islam doing injustice to these women who are "involved" and "educated" but still only count as half the witness of even an illiterate/uneducated man?

No. Because this world is not JUST made up of the west, it has many countries and most in which it is not like the West, even in my village in Pakistan it is hard for a woman in these situations because they do not have the experience. Islam is for everyone, all situations and all places... not just for the west or the east. And no, because as i said Islam did not come for one area or another, it came for all and THE MAJORITY of the world still have the men as the experienced in the world of work and the women experienced in the house. Just because some places start having women experienced too it does NOT change the law in any way, because it is some places. If murder became the norm in some places, Islam would still forbid and rightly so, as well as the majority still believing murder is wrong. Laws do not change because some places have changed a bit. Objective laws will remain the same, subjective laws will change, Islam is not subjective, but objective.

Qur'an in this very verse 4:34 says that men ARE the gurdians of women, NOT "could be" NOT "should be", so reflect on that.

That's fine. Yes men are the guardians of the wife. A guardian means to defend and protect, as well as carry out legal obligations. And that is what a husband is obliged to do. But as I stated before it is not FORBIDDEN for the wife to be stronger in personality and be "in charge" of opinions etc. I never stated the woman become the "guardian", i stated "If the husband and the wife are both practising, and the wife has an upper hand on the husband in opinions on how to run the house etc. There is nothing wrong in that, all blessings to that family." This is proven in Hadith, where the Prophet (pbuh) smiled when he heard about this.

Umar Ibn khattab told the Prophet (pbuh) that women had the upperhand over men in Medina (Sahih Muslim, Book 018, Number 4251) The Prophet (pbuh) showed a smile after hearing this (Sahih Bukhari,Volume 7, Book 62, Number 119).

If any muslim gets a wife who is even a fraction of the caliber of the wives of the prophet, he wouldn't need to dare touch her. So this argument is weak here.

This has nothing to do with the point I made. Check back at the comments. I stated it is Sunnah to NOT hit the wife, it is the last resort to strike her (lightly, according to most classical scholars), there are many more Quran verses and Hadith which point to the opposite, which is being kind. So from that I concluded that IT IS BETTER to not strike your wife. I am not saying anything against Islam. Imam Shafi (ra) said it is BARELY permissible, and PREFERABLE to not even do it. So what is the point in striking your wife? The option is there, but it is not obligatory, it is just better to stay away from doing it, you are not going to gain anything from it most of the time and you will be rewarded for the patience and the kindness, inshAllah.

If striking your wife was obligatory then it is a different story, but it is far from that with Imam Shafi deeming it BARELY permissible... so it is just better to not even get to that point.

So here you accept the islamic stance that i'm trying to emphasise. But you still argue against it, from this I conclude your reason for involvement in this thread can't be islamiclaly influenced, rather to justify what the western kuffar have you believe about the "rights" of women. You clearly know what Islam says and clearly know i'm only paraphrasing the accepted opinions.

I never try to justify western ideas, they have had some good ones but many bad ones. I speak up against the bad ones always. No women do not get MANY rights in the west, I know this, The west thinking they do does not change the truth. You are again not sticking to the point of what I said which was IT IS NOT OBLIGATORY, AND IT IS BETTER TO NOT EVEN GET TO THAT POINT. INSHALLAH. Allah will not punish someone for not striking his wife. So why do it? What is the benefit? None whatsoever, IN MOST CASES.

I'm also worried about your leaning on this issue especially as it stinks of shirk, especially because you yourself are saying " and what God has willed must be best" yet you refuse it and lean towards what "the heart of the prophet said"

Shrik? Many Muslims like to play the Shrik card for everything, it means nothing to me except what Allah thinks. Again another straw man argument I NEVER STATED I refuse the Quranic verse, I quoted a scholar and i can quote more if you like, i quoted the Hadith and the Quran itself to support what I am saying. The Quran has ONE verse in which it mentions striking the wife, ONE WORD in the whole of the Quran talking about striking the wife, and even then it is THE LAST RESORT, which should in reality HARDLY ever be reached. But The Quran many times more verses talking about kindness with the wife. My point is again that i DO NOT REFUSE THE QURANIC VERSE, I JUST SAY THAT IT DOES NOT NEED TO OCCUR AND HOPEFULLY IT SHOULDN'T IN 99% OF MARRIAGES. Never did i refuse. Allah will always be over Muhammad (pbuh) in everything. The Shrik card is like the race card, it is old and weak and pointless.

Answer these two questions to see where you stand:
1.Did the prophet (pbuh) accept Allah's ruling on the " beating of a refractory wife"?
2.Do YOU accept Allah's ruling on the " beating of a refractory wife"?

1. Yes Muhammad (pbuh) accepted it
2. I accept the ruling, but I also accept the other rulings and other statements made by Allah and then His Messenger regarding to kindness. You seem to love hanging on this one thing, It is not obligatory to strike the wife, it does not NEED to happen, so lets just leave it at that. Yes Allah states, and yes i accept it, but I do not have to do it in my marriage because it is not a direct command like Prayer, Zakat etc.


and Allah knows best.

Salam.

[Acacia]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...l=1#post743845

Watch these videos and insha'Allah the conversation therein will soften all hearts and tongues (especially minute 3:15 to 4:06 in 2nd video).

[Abdul1234]

Its usually the brothers that start practicing (there may be exceptions) that do not beat their wives. Rather they treat them nicely. Its just the ignorant people that like to do this. Mashallah with the work of the scholars and the tablighi brothers things are starting to change. And before anyone starts to say that indo-pak imams aren't doing enough they are- it just the public that can't be bothered to read and listen to their works.
If you feel this to be a problem in your area i would advise you to call a scholar and organize an event in a Masjid or event hall. Maybe you can also distribute leaflets as well.

this is so true

this problem has to be dealt with from within Muslim communities and the learned are the best to promote awareness of women's actual respected position in Islam.

in regards the whole business that is being talked about

as far as I have seen its not usually the religious men who mistreat their wives in any of the Muslim communities that I know.

from what I have seen the Muslims who are the worst husbands (including the wife beaters) are usually ignorant to the point of retardation and are the most westernized 'Muslims' who place most emphasis on material things.

yet these people are quick to (wrongly) try and justify themselves by the religion even though they don't even pray apart from on Juma etc

[kakarot_999]

this is so true

as far as I have seen its not the religious (truly religious) brothers who mistreat their wives in any of the Muslim communities that I know.

from what I have seen the Muslims who are the worst husbands (including the wife beaters) are usually either ignorant to the point of retardation and/or the most westernized 'Muslims' who place most emphasis on material things.

Salaamu alaiykum
Laa akhi. Anyone can fall into wife beating to be honest. Many of you bachelors (like myself) can sit there and confidently say that I will never hit my wife, but unless you can tell me that you never hit your sister or any other women just out of irritation and anger (I mean at the stage you're at, not when you were a little boy) then I can tell you that you will have a reeaaal hard time with your wife. Because the women which would strike most of your nerves is your wife and you can't say it unless you feel it. And even if you haven't hit any women, your wife will be the true test to that. So yes, I can say that even religious brothers will have a hard time to prevent themselves from beating their wives, and Allah knows best (that is just my prediction based on experience). Infact, funny enough, some westernized muslims don't beat their wives as much. The fact is that wife beating does happen and most, if not all, of the time it happens in a way not prescribed by Islam. That's just the real hard truth. But I really don't look down upon the man totally because I acknowledge that the sister also had a choice in the marriage, unless they were compelled (which is rarely). May Allah protect the women of this ummah for they are the holders and practically sole devolpers of the next generation of ummah.

[Harrow Muslim Reform]

[QUOTE=Harrow Muslim Reform;742843]Many muslim women are seeking protection for themselves and their children from muslim men who abuse and
oppress them. Muslim homes are broken, muslim children are in the care of social services.
Who is to blame?

Brothers and sisters

You have all made valid contributions. Some of you have given justifications for hitting a wife, with reference to Quran and Hadith. However a few said it was down to the individual.
The Following video by sheikh Suleiman Ghani, is very informative and Inshallah will help us all put things into perspective.
http://youtu.be/ySiMArfdkGU

[Abdul1234]

Salaamu alaiykum
Laa akhi. Anyone can fall into wife beating to be honest. Many of you bachelors (like myself) can sit there and confidently say that I will never hit my wife, but unless you can tell me that you never hit your sister or any other women just out of irritation and anger (I mean at the stage you're at, not when you were a little boy) then I can tell you that you will have a reeaaal hard time with your wife. Because the women which would strike most of your nerves is your wife and you can't say it unless you feel it. And even if you haven't hit any women, your wife will be the true test to that. So yes, I can say that even religious brothers will have a hard time to prevent themselves from beating their wives, and Allah knows best (that is just my prediction based on experience). Infact, funny enough, some westernized muslims don't beat their wives as much. The fact is that wife beating does happen and most, if not all, of the time it happens in a way not prescribed by Islam. That's just the real hard truth. But I really don't look down upon the man totally because I acknowledge that the sister also had a choice in the marriage, unless they were compelled (which is rarely). May Allah protect the women of this ummah for they are the holders and practically sole devolpers of the next generation of ummah.

brother I can only speak from what I have seen

and personally I have seen westernized Muslims really mess women around in all sorts of ways and just use them like objects or doormats and do things like taking "secret second wives" and do all sorts of things like this. I have even seen these people misuse new-Muslim sisters in such ways.

always these people are never doing the essentials and avoiding the forbiddens but they use Islam as their excuse for their bad treatment of women

and speaking for myself personally, I have to say that I have never known any truly religious Muslim who beats their wife

[Harrow Muslim Reform]

Yes I agree with you, but even if we take an example of the sub continent, where many families are cultured. Men there oppress their wives too, but only problem is a lot of them have nowhere to go and fear the stigma, so put up with it.
So its probably worse for them.

[Mansy]

So Islam is sexist? well that is your opinion, doesn't make it so.

Assalamualaikum brother Saqib, thank you for the contribution. Can you please give us the status of the hadiths that you are quoting? Also please understand that an interpretation is just that and not Islam per se. It is an interpretation of an understanding of Islam and not Islam itself, hence we concede that Allah knows best.
A large majority of the ulama have said that the hitting must be slight with the stroke of the miswak (darb ghayr mubarrah). Also the word darb has multiple meanings, one of it's meaning is also 'to have sexual intercourse.' To this end some scholars have interpreted this in the process of reconciliation, that a good telling off (fa'idhuhunna), the angry period where both need their own space, to sleep back to back in the SAME bed (fil madaji) and the cooling period where they try making things better by making love (fadribuhunna). A married couple will know that after an argument, making love in the cooling period can have a positive effect on the reconciliation process. This is my tuppence thought and Allah knows best.
wassalam
Mansur

[Mansy]

Yes I agree with you, but even if we take an example of the sub continent, where many families are cultured. Men there oppress their wives too, but only problem is a lot of them have nowhere to go and fear the stigma, so put up with it.
So its probably worse for them.

Sub-continent mentality can be really bad if not worse. Just today I've been dealing with a sisters case who has been the victim of a severe case of domestic violence for the last ten years. And to add insult to injury, the husband is an alim from back home. May Allah fill our hearts with love for fellow human being whoever they are.
wassalam
Mansur