Psychology, Psychoanalysis, Psychotherapy, Psychiatry

[uber_mensch]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

Brother I can see what you are saying and agree with it in many ways but on the issue of the necessity for the Islamicization of
'modern' science I think you may be a little over pessimistic.

In one thing you are talking about I think you are mixing two things here - these are empirical science and the philosophies that influence how we interpret it

empirical science is just a value neutral system of systematic observation allied to mathematical analysis. it has no essential underlying theories other than the belief that the world can be understood more accurately through scientific observation and measurement.

The fact that many scientists in the last three centuries have been used by the misguided materialist philosophies of the kafiroon to try an imply that they are scientifically justified is nothing to do with science - only with the utilization of science and its misinterpretation.

The foundations of empirical science are very much foundations in the Islamic civilization with dozens of figures such as Al-Biruni, Al-Kindi, Jabbir Ibn Hayyam and Ibn Haitham laying the essential foundations of scientific observation, empiricism and mathematics that would much later reach Europe and take off like a rocket after the so-called European Enlightenment.

At the end of the day it is the case that philosophy is required to interpret the informational produce scientific research - the kuffar will inevitably interpret scientific findings in accordance with their misguided beliefs - rightly guided Muslims will interpret it in accordance with their correct beliefs and their Divinely enlightened philosophy.

brother you may find this article changes your views a little on this issue in some ways http://www.bediuzzamansaidnursi.org/...slim-countries its a bit long but is well worth the read

Assalamu alaykum,

What I meant by the metaphysical foundations of science is that there are many assumptions that are outright kufr that are necessary to do science. It has been said that you need to do a lot of metaphysics to get to a point where you don't need metaphysics, and even now philosophers can't figure out a proper materialist metaphysic. Science on the whole just ignores the problem since their concern is industrial production, not truth.

Science lies upon the assumptions that 'inert matter' exists as such, that you can determine by repetition 'universal laws' (see hume's problem of induction), that the universe if a closed system in which all causes and effects are material or produced by matter, and that all processes can be ultimately reduced to quantities, mathematical formulae. These all tend to drive one towards atheism. Reduction to quantity strips all objects of any qualitative properties, in fact science tends to pretend like qualities dont even exist or some how are produced by 'inert matter' which is a direct contradction, this strips objects of any 'essence' and makes the world appear as just a disparate, indefinite mass of quantifiable objects, nothing more.

Science, as such, lacks any explanatory value. This is because of its mechanistic and reductionist (to pure quantity) character. It can only describe or represent, it cant explain anything, that why there is something rather than nothing. So it is useless, even though the scientists vehemently defend it by the mentioning of the mass industrial applications of their science, which I might add, if these were absent, no one would care at all about their science.

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.

Muslims have their own physical theories, though somewhat out of date, and if we were to use our own metaphysics as a starting point, any such natural sciences would be of a vastly different character, and we probably would not be able to match the kuffar in terms of industrial production.

Regardless, I believe their system will not last. Matter has the fundamental tendency to create disunity, chaos. This was a basic assertion about 'matter' made by the ancient Greeks, Aristotle included. We can see this easily in the materialistic societies of the west. There is no transcendent principle to unify their people, only a mass of desires and wants exist, they are only prevented from killing eachother en masse due to their belief that doing so would prevent them from satisfying their wants. This is an illusory stability, and the only thing stopping this mass chaos and slaughter from happening is the current relative level of prosperity.

It is evident that slowly the amount of 'chaos' present in the society is increasing, which eventually will lead to a dissolution of that society. Do not be fooled by their riches and technology, it is an illusion, it will one day be gone, since it is only predicated on cheap oil, once any prosperity disappears these westerners will complete their return to utter barbarism, murdering and raping eachother over their precious 'inert matter'.

[amr123]

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.

We have to realize the limitations of science. Give it the status it deserves. Its just a tool.

[Abdul1234]

Assalamu alaykum,

What I meant by the metaphysical foundations of science is that there are many assumptions that are outright kufr that are necessary to do science. It has been said that you need to do a lot of metaphysics to get to a point where you don't need metaphysics, and even now philosophers can't figure out a proper materialist metaphysic. Science on the whole just ignores the problem since their concern is industrial production, not truth.

Science lies upon the assumptions that 'inert matter' exists as such, that you can determine by repetition 'universal laws' (see hume's problem of induction), that the universe if a closed system in which all causes and effects are material or produced by matter, and that all processes can be ultimately reduced to quantities, mathematical formulae. These all tend to drive one towards atheism. Reduction to quantity strips all objects of any qualitative properties, in fact science tends to pretend like qualities dont even exist or some how are produced by 'inert matter' which is a direct contradction, this strips objects of any 'essence' and makes the world appear as just a disparate, indefinite mass of quantifiable objects, nothing more.

Science, as such, lacks any explanatory value. This is because of its mechanistic and reductionist (to pure quantity) character. It can only describe or represent, it cant explain anything, that why there is something rather than nothing. So it is useless, even though the scientists vehemently defend it by the mentioning of the mass industrial applications of their science, which I might add, if these were absent, no one would care at all about their science.

So my question is why? Why would one want muslims to do science or to islamise it? The only reason could be to emulate the mass industrial production of the kuffar, since this is all science is useful for; creating vast amounts of soulless, useless plastic junk, and enabling this mass consumerist society to continue its pathetic existence. If muslims follow the kuffar, down this lizards hole so to speak, muslims will end up like the kuffar; materialistic, greedy, driven by desires and wants for material goods, mindlessly consuming and godless. So if we consider these masses of useless material goods as not worth having, there is no benefit in science at all.

Muslims have their own physical theories, though somewhat out of date, and if we were to use our own metaphysics as a starting point, any such natural sciences would be of a vastly different character, and we probably would not be able to match the kuffar in terms of industrial production.

Regardless, I believe their system will not last. Matter has the fundamental tendency to create disunity, chaos. This was a basic assertion about 'matter' made by the ancient Greeks, Aristotle included. We can see this easily in the materialistic societies of the west. There is no transcendent principle to unify their people, only a mass of desires and wants exist, they are only prevented from killing eachother en masse due to their belief that doing so would prevent them from satisfying their wants. This is an illusory stability, and the only thing stopping this mass chaos and slaughter from happening is the current relative level of prosperity.

It is evident that slowly the amount of 'chaos' present in the society is increasing, which eventually will lead to a dissolution of that society. Do not be fooled by their riches and technology, it is an illusion, it will one day be gone, since it is only predicated on cheap oil, once any prosperity disappears these westerners will complete their return to utter barbarism, murdering and raping eachother over their precious 'inert matter'.

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

[Sulaiman84]

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

The Sahabah didn't have any upper hand in technology yet they were given honor and victory over those who had power and technology (in their time).

I don't mean to say that technology is not to be used at all nor is it completely useless. It's just that it wasn't the main cause of honor and dominance of Islam.

[uber_mensch]

science and technology = power

we must take the power back from the non-Muslims

and make it so the Muslims have the upper hand once more -

and yes, the last time the Muslims had the upper hand over the disbelievers -

was the last time they had the upper hand in science and technology.


America and the West, even tiny Israel are kicking the Muslim Ummah black and blue -

they are not doing it through bravery or the strength of their hearts.

Let me remind you of the third kalima:

سُبْحَان اللهِ وَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ وَ لآ اِلهَ اِلّا اللّهُ وَ اللّهُ اَكْبَرُ وَلا حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّة ِ الَّا بِاللّهِ الْعَلِىّ الْعَظِيْ

(Flawless is Allah and the Praise is of Allah, and (there is) no god except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And (there is) neither might nor power except with Allah, the Sublime, the Tremendous.)

Muslims today are weak because they don't practice their religion. They won't become strong by imitating the kuffar.

[Abdul1234]

The Sahabah didn't have any upper hand in technology yet they were given honor and victory over those who had power and technology (in their time).

I don't mean to say that technology is not to be used at all or it's completely useless. It's just that it wasn't the main cause of honor and dominance of Islam.

brother even at the time of the Sahaba the Muslims started learning at the instructions of the Holy Prophet (saws)

- even to the extent that the prisoner of war who taught Muslims to read would be freed...

for example...

How did Muslims fight the battle of the trench?

was it with stones and sticks and leaving it to Allah and just trusting that Allah will fix everything for us?

no - it was by digging a trench with stakes in it for defense, something that Salam al-Farsi (raa) had seen in Persia -

but which was at that point superior military technology to that possessed by the Quraish who had no ability to deal with it

and which (through the mercy of Allah) allowed the believers to defeat the enemies of Islam in that battle.


Prophet Muhammad (saws) told us to seek knowledge even in China

and we know full well that it wasn't religious knowledge he was talking about

it was worldly knowledge and science is just as system for gaining this knowledge

(in China or elsewhere)


in the current era scientific methodology is indispensable brother

[Abdul1234]

Let me remind you of the third kalima:

سُبْحَان اللهِ وَ الْحَمْدُ لِلّهِ وَ لآ اِلهَ اِلّا اللّهُ وَ اللّهُ اَكْبَرُ وَلا حَوْلَ وَلاَ قُوَّة ِ الَّا بِاللّهِ الْعَلِىّ الْعَظِيْ

(Flawless is Allah and the Praise is of Allah, and (there is) no god except Allah, and Allah is the Greatest. And (there is) neither might nor power except with Allah, the Sublime, the Tremendous.)

Muslims today are weak because they don't practice their religion. They won't become strong by imitating the kuffar.

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullah

If you are accusing me of denying the kaleemas of Islam because I am saying Muslims should take back science then you are surely saying something strange.

And if you are accusing me of saying that Muslims should imitate the kuffar then you are well out of order brother.


Muslims today are weak because they are mostly bad Muslims (weak like the froth on water according to one hadith that may be referring to the present)

but they are also weak because they have inferior technology


this world is a place of trial - Allah does not do everything for us brother


if a good Muslim has only a bow and arrow for defense

and he has to defend himself against a kaffir in an Apache helicopter

- is it his weak faith that will see him killed?

[Abdul1234]

SCIENCE BELONGS TO THE MUSLIMS

http://www.1001inventions.com/

HISTORY HAS BEEN DISTORTED

http://www.muslimheritage.com/

Some Muslims have continued their involvement in science but not enough of them and in many cases not the best ones.

http://metaexistence.org/timeline3.htm

An interesting read...

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/a...C0305-1967&p=1

[Abdul1234]

Brothers Sulaiman and Superman/Overman

You should really try reading Fountain Magazine you may find it enlightening http://www.fountainmagazine.com/


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cannot these hadeeth be said to apply to various useful sciences as well as other valuable ilm?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74) - is Islamic Ilm specified - no it obviously means beneficial knowledge in general yes?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws):

“One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God…”

(Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245) - this doesn't specify just Islamic learning - it implies other useful learning too - for example medical learning which is reliant upon scientific research, yes?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"If anyone travels on a road in search of knowledge, God will cause him to travel on one of the roads of Paradise. The angels will lower their wings in their great pleasure with one who seeks knowledge. The inhabitants of the heavens and the Earth and (even) the fish in the deep waters will ask forgiveness for the learned man.

The superiority of the learned over the devout is like that of the moon, on the night when it is full, over the rest of the stars.

The learned are the heirs of the Prophets, and the Prophets leave (no monetary inheritance), they leave only knowledge, and he who takes it takes an abundant portion.

(Sunan of Abu-Dawood, Hadith 1631) - this hadith is obviously primarily about Islamic Ilm, but does it deny that other useful/valuable knowledge is excluded?

The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Allah, His angels and all those in Heavens and on Earth, even ants in their hills and fish in the water, call down blessings on those who instruct others in beneficial knowledge."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 422) does this beneficial knowledge not include things like medicine etc which rely upon scientific research to advance?


The Holy Prophet Muhammad (saws) said:

"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people."

(Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107) - science is just one of the tools that can be used to acquire knowledge about the world around us.

[suleimanibnsalim]

just for reference: http://m.deenport.com/messages/view.php?t=26773