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Thread: forced sterilisation

  1. #21
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by faizol View Post
    brothers,

    I think it's time to cool down. We all know racism has no place in Islam as everybody is equal except for their taqwa. And at the same time, this might be a good opportunity to do some da'wah to those who can afford to do so towards the mentioned aborigines. Let's put aside the negative feelings and let's see what opportunity one has to please Allah in this case. This is not an attempt to sweep anything under the rug, but more to try to difuse anything from escalating. What is bad is bad, and hopefully all of us learn a thing or two here, .
    There is already a growing Muslim Aboriginal community.


  2. #22
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul1234 View Post
    it is you who is implying racial determination of behaviour and implying that Aborigines don't have free will

    - implying that the drunks and glue sniffers amongst them are so because of their race - this is clear.

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________________


    There are many many historical and social factors that have lead to the low current state of some Aborigines, leave them alone.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________


    Allah made the Aborigines are you accusing him of making mistakes and making peoples who need exterminating?
    Yes, blah blah blah. I think you forgot to append the usual cut paste refutation.

    You've clearly never interacted with these 'beautiful people'. The video posted in this thread doesn't give a foreigner an objective view of the situation, and as a side note, none of those guys even mentioned ALLAH or his rasool as a reason for converting. It was all **** about how it makes them feel special, or superior, or whatever. They're no different from black nationalist muslims who spend their whole time whining about the evil white oppressors and use islam as a means to do so. Their religiosity is merely a cover for their envy and desire to have what other people have. This is pretty clear to anyone with some psychological insight.

    There is no contradiction between biological determinism and free will, by the way. But given that you've demonstrated a marked incapacity for philosophy in the past, I wont bother trying to explain compatibilism to you.

    All of this is beside the point. Aboriginals are just an example. Would it be permissible to sterilise people who were retarded? Why should they be allowed to produce offspring which will carry 'retard genes'?
    Last edited by uber_mensch; 25-04-2012 at 03:23 PM.


  3. #23
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by uber_mensch View Post

    blah blah blah. I think you forgot to append the usual cut paste refutation.

    You've clearly never interacted with these 'beautiful people'. The video posted in this thread doesn't give a foreigner an objective view of the situation, and as a side note,

    none of those guys even mentioned ALLAH or his rasool as a reason for converting. It was all **** about how it makes them feel special, or superior, or whatever.

    They're no different from black nationalist muslims who spend their whole time whining about the evil white oppressors and use islam as a means to do so.

    Their religiosity is merely a cover for their envy and desire to have what other people have.

    This is pretty clear to anyone with some psychological insight.
    what is clear to anyone with some psychological insight is that you have some traits of a narcissistic personality disorder

    you have weak adab

    and you clearly have some ideas that are the antithesis to Islam.


    I suffer from epilepsy, do you wish to sterilise me too?
    Last edited by Abdul1234; 26-04-2012 at 12:54 AM.


  4. #24
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by uber_mensch View Post
    So, reality is racist?
    Reality may as well be racist (and it is) but Islam forbids us from treating others differently based on their race. People are to be treated on a person by person basis, not grouped together like racists like to do. Should white people be sterilized because they've a history of conquering other nations, reaping these nations of all their resources, and acting coy and innocent when non-whites demand justice? No other race has been as guilty of theft of both life and land as the white race, which is a fact. No other race has been as dangerous to the existence of humanity as the white race. Now, does that mean we treat every white person the same? Many white people disagree and hate some of the history that has plagued the white race.
    ياايها الذين امنوا اذكروا الله ذكرا كثيرا


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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by uber_mensch View Post
    You've clearly never interacted with these 'beautiful people'. The video posted in this thread doesn't give a foreigner an objective view of the situation, and as a side note, none of those guys even mentioned ALLAH or his rasool as a reason for converting. It was all **** about how it makes them feel special, or superior, or whatever. They're no different from black nationalist muslims who spend their whole time whining about the evil white oppressors and use islam as a means to do so. Their religiosity is merely a cover for their envy and desire to have what other people have. This is pretty clear to anyone with some psychological insight.

    Usama ibn Zayd said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, sent us to al-Huraqa, a sub-tribe of Juhayna, and we came upon the people in the morning at their springs. A man of the Ansar and I overtook one of their men. When we descended on him, he said, 'There is no god but Allah.' The Ansari held back from him, but I stabbed him with my spear until I had killed him. When we arrived in Madina, that reached the Prophet and he said, 'O Usama, did you kill him after he had said, "There is no god but Allah"?' I said, 'Messenger of Allah, he was only trying to save himself.' He said, 'Did you kill him after he had said, "There is no god but Allah"?' He continued to repeat it to me until I wished that I had not become Muslim until that day." [Agreed upon]

    In one variant, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Did he say, "There is no god but Allah" and yet you still killed him?' I said, 'Messenger of Allah, he only said it out of fear of our weapons.' He said, 'Did you then split open his heart so that you know whether he truly meant it when he said it or not?' He continued to repeat it until I wished that I had only become Muslim on that day."


  6. #26
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Early this morning I saw a programme on Islam Channel made by Australian Muslims about the history of Islam in Australia.

    Interestingly it talked of the well established ties (including intermarriage) between aborigines and Indonesian Muslims in the centuries before the Europeans came and how the Europeans put a stop to it.

    It also talked about the Afghan and Pakistani Cameleers who helped in the spread of modern civilization in Australia and how after many decades of their productive life there they became victims of white supremacist policies.

    Many of these Afghan and Pakistani cameleers had married Aborigine women and had children,

    but due to the white supremacist ideas of the Australian authorities and the kidnapping and forcible Christianization of Aborigine children - the Islam of these Asian/Aborigines was lost.

    a very sad story indeed, apart from the fact that there is now a rebirth of Islam amongst the Australian Aborigines.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______


    Three centuries of history

    Indigenous and Muslim communities have traded, socialised and intermarried in Australia for three centuries.

    From the early 1700s, Muslim fishermen from Indonesia made annual voyages to the north and northwestern Australian coast in search of sea slugs (trepang). The trade that developed included material goods, but the visitors also left a lasting religious legacy.

    Recent research confirms the existence of Islamic motifs in some north Australian Aboriginal mythology and ritual.

    In mortuary ceremonies conducted by communities in Galiwinku on Elcho Island today, there is reference to Dreaming figure Walitha’walitha, an adaptation of the Arabic phrase Allah ta’ala (God, the exalted

    The first Muslims to settle permanently in Australia were the cameleers, mainly from Afghanistan. Between the 1860s and 1920s, the Muslim camelmen worked the inland tracks and developed relationships with local Aboriginal people. Intermarriage was common and there are Aboriginal families with surnames including Khan, Sultan, Mahomed and Akbar.


    From the mid-1880s, Muslim Malays came to north Australia as indentured labourers in the pearl-shelling industry.

    They, too, formed longstanding relationships with the Indigenous people they met. A significant number married local Aboriginal women, and today there are many Aboriginal-Malay people in the top end of Australia.

    A culture in common

    My research has found a broad spectrum of Indigenous identification with Islam. It ranges from those who have Afghan and Malay Muslim ancestors, but are not practising Muslims, to those who have no Muslim ancestors, but are strict adherents of the faith.

    The Indigenous Muslims I met perceive a neat cultural fit between their traditional Indigenous beliefs and the teachings of Islam. Many hold that in embracing Islam they are simultaneously going back to their Indigenous roots.

    They find cultural parallels in the shared practices of male circumcision, arranged marriages, polygyny (a form of marriage in which a man has more than one wife), and the fact that men are usually older than their wives in both Islamic and traditional Indigenous societies.

    Interviewee Alinta, for example, finds “Islam connects with [her] Aboriginality” because of a shared emphasis on gendered roles and spheres of influence. “In Islam, men have a clear role and women have a clear role, and with Aboriginal people, that’s how it was too”.

    Others commented on the similar attitudes that Muslims and Indigenous people have towards the environment. According to another interview, Nazra, “in the Qur’an it tells you very clearly don’t waste what is not needed … and the Aboriginal community is the same. Water and food are so precious you only take what you need”.

    Change what you do, not who you are


    Indigenous Muslims are also attracted to Islam because it does not subscribe to the kind of mono-culturalism Christian missionaries imposed on Aboriginal people.

    The Qur’an states that Allah made human beings into different nations and tribes. These racial and cultural differences, far from being wrong, are a sign from God.

    According to Shahzad, another interviewee from the group, Islam doesn’t just say “you’re Muslim, that’s it. It recognises we belong to different tribes and nations. So it doesn’t do what Christianity did to a lot of Aboriginal people, [which] was try and make them like white people.”

    Indigenous Australian Muslims (in common with black Britons and African-Americans), understand conversion to Islam as a means of repairing the deep psychological scars they suffer as a people.

    But there are also gender-specific reasons why Islam appeals to Indigenous women and men.

    Indigenous women have long been stereotyped as sexually available, and they suffer disproportionate levels of sexual abuse. Wearing the hijab is a practical as well as symbolic deterrent to unwanted attention.

    The late African-American leader, Malcolm X, played a very important role for Aboriginal Muslims. Wikimedia Commons

    As a public expression of the importance Islam accords the family, it also appeals to Indigenous female converts who, against the backdrop of a long history of family break-up, want to offer their children security and stability.

    A similarly nuanced set of arguments surrounds the appeal of Islam for Indigenous men. Many, particularly those in the prison system, are initially drawn to Islam through the rhetoric of Malcolm X. But the Islamic notion of “universal brotherhood” and its disavowal of racial distinctions leads to a growth in self-esteem that has a significant influence on the way they think about their roles as husbands and fathers.
    Restoring pride and conferring leadership

    The attraction of Islam for many Indigenous men is that it recognises the importance of defined leadership roles for men in their families and communities. These roles have largely been lost through racism and the ongoing legacy of colonisation.

    As the head of the family, Muslim men have a divine responsibility to protect and maintain their wives and families and this, according to Shahzad, gives him “strength to be a man”.

    Many of the men I spoke with identified themselves as former “angry black men”. Incensed by the long history and contemporary reality of racist subjugation of Indigenous Australians, they viewed Anglo-Australian people and society with contempt.

    According to one interviewee, Justin: “before I was the typical Black angry man. I was just consumed by anger”.

    Sulaiman stressed that he considered terrorism before, not after, becoming a Muslim:

    “I could very well have become a terrorist, without Islam, through the way I’ve been treated … Islam came into my life and actually said hey, cool down, it’s alright, justice will be served eventually.”
    Rules to live by

    Against the backdrop of what Shahzad calls “the hurt of colonisation”, Islam offers Indigenous people an alternative system that includes a strict code of conduct and a moral and ethical framework that, they feel, connects them to their traditional heritage.

    For some Aboriginal people, the adoption of a faith that demands the avoidance of alcohol, drugs and gambling has also played a positive role in their lives.

    Islam emphasises the equality of all people, regardless of skin colour. For Indigenous men and women, inclusion in the Australian national community has historically depended on the renunciation of their Aboriginality. Membership in an international community that not only tolerates difference, but is predicated on it, can be very empowering.

    It is likely that the number of Indigenous Muslims will continue to grow. Indigenous people find that identification with Islam, of whatever kind, meets both their spiritual and social needs – offering a buffer against systemic racism, a clear moral template, well-defined roles and entry to a global society that does not make assimilation the price of admission.

    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...=-1#post704753
    Last edited by Abdul1234; 20-08-2012 at 05:42 AM.


  7. #27
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by uber_mensch View Post
    Would it be permissible to sterilise people in islam?
    which situation are you referring to exactly?
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    based on the context i think its about sterilising aborigines because of social issues. perhaps the white man can go back to their home country like they tell ethnics in the uk who dont like it here
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  9. #29
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    This is an old thread. Hilarious how a human wants to use religion to confirm their own prejudices. "I hate Aboriginals in Australia they are drunks, lazy and criminal therefore they should be eliminated, and forced to not be able to breed". "Can Islam give me permission for this, I am a very clever fellow and capable of philosophy etc. and I am the best judge".

    Very funny.


  10. #30
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    Default Re: forced sterilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by uber_mensch View Post
    If they spend all day being drunk, sniffing petrol harassing people on public transport and living on the dole, then yes, they need fixing.
    Quote Originally Posted by faizol View Post
    Lol. "A Menace to Society".

    But the sad truth is, everyone needs fixing in some form or another, and us included.

    The companions, during their jahiliya times, even the two great super powers at the time, the Romans and the Persians, who were busy fighting with each other and expanding their teritorries, would not want to bother with the Arab tribes. Their land didn't have any resources. There was no comparison to how low their jahiliya akhlaq was. And our Beloved Prophet used to seclude himself away from the cities, away from all the jahiliya parties and all that.

    But once they accept Islam, Allah made them the best people of all people that nobody from future generations could bypass them in terms of their akhlaq, sacrifices they made, their taqwa and so forth.

    Perhaps brother this is a good chance for you to organize a jemaah and to introduce Islam to them?

    Allah Knows Best.
    You know its really a Sufi-forum when even South Asian people didn't give give the example of Maulana Ilyasji rh and the mewaatis. [except for a hint by bro faizol].

    Even mods who gave grown up in tabligh households have not given the example of mewaat.

    The mewaatis were worse, and were so since ages, imagine how much tabligh must have Maulana Ilyasji rh done?

    And to think that Maulana Ilyasji rh was not a Prophet or a Sahabah, or among the Tab'een...

    man, this is an EPIC-FAIL.

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