Slave-girl raping in islam

[Saqqib_Ali]

??? Where did you find this ruling? In fact if you look at the Hadith and the Quran it implicitly and explicitly states the opposite. "Without her permission" means A man is allowed to have sex with his wife even if she refuses, meaning he is allowed to force her to have sex with him. Which is.

Why don't you even accept this as a minority accepted view even though it is based on strong Hadith etc... We can go into this but this will divert the course of this thread.

"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked what a husband should do if his wife refuses him when he asks for intimacy.*

He replied:*

It is not permissible for her to rebel against him or to withhold herself from him, rather if she refuses him and persists in doing so, he may hit her in a manner that does not cause injury, and she is not entitled to spending or a share of his time [in the case of plural marriage].” Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 32/279"

If the women doesn't consent and the husband says ok I'm not feeding you anymore because you are disobedient to me, and then she says ok do what you have to, does that mean this is not rape anymore? Did the man really get the woman's consent?

There you go and I do hope when people are quoting the prophet (pbuh) they give some sort of reference at least, otherwise it becomes hearsay. Don't approach like a beast? Where's your proof and bring the Hadith reference.

My only point was why do we have to degrade our mothers and sisters to the level of a slave just to justify Islam to the Kuffar.

The bigger issue isn't sex with a slave girl, that is a given, a man in whose right hand he possess a female slave is bound to do something sometime even if it is for curiosity. If there is an issue here it is slavery. Also there is a clear verse in the Quran saying that one can have sex with a slave even if she is married. And the slave has no right to resist unless the owner decided she has a valid reason.

Salam

Saqqib

[faizol]

Why don't you even accept this as a minority accepted view even though it is based on strong Hadith etc... We can go into this but this will divert the course of this thread.

"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked what a husband should do if his wife refuses him when he asks for intimacy.*

He replied:*

It is not permissible for her to rebel against him or to withhold herself from him, rather if she refuses him and persists in doing so, he may hit her in a manner that does not cause injury, and she is not entitled to spending or a share of his time [in the case of plural marriage].” Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 32/279"

If the women doesn't consent and the husband says ok I'm not feeding you anymore because you are disobedient to me, and then she says ok do what you have to, does that mean this is not rape anymore? Did the man really get the woman's consent?

There you go and I do hope when people are quoting the prophet (pbuh) they give some sort of reference at least, otherwise it becomes hearsay. Don't approach like a beast? Where's your proof and bring the Hadith reference.

My only point was why do we have to degrade our mothers and sisters to the level of a slave just to justify Islam to the Kuffar.

The bigger issue isn't sex with a slave girl, that is a given, a man in whose right hand he possess a female slave is bound to do something sometime even if it is for curiosity. If there is an issue here it is slavery. Also there is a clear verse in the Quran saying that one can have sex with a slave even if she is married. And the slave has no right to resist unless the owner decided she has a valid reason.

Salam

Saqqib

brother Saqqib,

would it be possible for you to open a new thread and to put the evidence that you say a master can have sex with his slave even though she's already married? We all know that Islam stresses so much on a clarity of a lineage, and that's one of the reasons why adultery is forbidden in the first place, which would be contradicting to what you just said. Also could you please put a reference to the verse that you said *clearly* allows for a master to do this to his slave?

[Saqqib_Ali]

Brother lets not waste time because there's no point to opening a new thread, this topic of raping slave girls is in itself misleading.

This is what one verse of the Quran says 4:24. "Also (forbidden are) women already married, exceptthose (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you"

What do you think that means, I'm basically paraphrasing the Quran in what I said about this topic.

About raping slaves, that is such a stupid concept, it doesn't however exist. A slave is a property and the owner doesn't need anyone's permission as to what they can do with their own property. It's like saying someone stole his slaves shoes. Can that happen?

If there is any issue then it is slavery, even then in all cases Islamic stance would be to free the slave.

A lot of he time the Kuffar throw these topics in the path of Muslims and they having shame in their heads about such events and start trying to appease he Kuffar so they might think better of Islam. What people need to do is have confidence in their lord and what was revealed.

Let's remember what Yazeed the great did in his attack on Madina to the Sahaba and their women and children.

Salam

Saqqib

[faizol]

Brother lets not waste time because there's no point to opening a new thread, this topic of raping slave girls is in itself misleading.

This is what one verse of the Quran says 4:24. "Also (forbidden are) women already married, exceptthose (captives and slaves) whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you"

What do you think that means, I'm basically paraphrasing the Quran in what I said about this topic.

About raping slaves, that is such a stupid concept, it doesn't however exist. A slave is a property and the owner doesn't need anyone's permission as to what they can do with their own property. It's like saying someone stole his slaves shoes. Can that happen?

If there is any issue then it is slavery, even then in all cases Islamic stance would be to free the slave.

A lot of he time the Kuffar throw these topics in the path of Muslims and they having shame in their heads about such events and start trying to appease he Kuffar so they might think better of Islam. What people need to do is have confidence in their lord and what was revealed.

Let's remember what Yazeed the great did in his attack on Madina to the Sahaba and their women and children.

Salam

Saqqib

brother,

Islam places high priority on a clarity of lineage, thus a woman cannot have two husbands at the same time. This is the first time I heard something like you said, that is a married slave can have sex with her owner. And frankly, using just a verse without going in-depth of how it is *allowed* in shariah is kind of misleading. We need to be careful not to make haram things halal.

And regarding yazeed, what he did was wrong anyways so his actions were not to be taken as examples. More over when he wasn't an authoritative figure in the sciences of Islam.

[Saqqib_Ali]

... using just a verse without going in-depth of how it is *allowed* in shariah is kind of misleading..

I wonder why Allah made his last book that is meant to be a miracle so misleading for people, even when the ruling is there in black and white.

About the lineage, strict idha laws are to be followed meaning the father can easily be determined. If the slave begets the child of her master, the child can inherit from the master and after the master dies the mother and the child go free.

Salam

Saqqib

[Kuffs]

Why don't you even accept this as a minority accepted view even though it is based on strong Hadith etc... We can go into this but this will divert the course of this thread.

"Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked what a husband should do if his wife refuses him when he asks for intimacy.*

He replied:*

It is not permissible for her to rebel against him or to withhold herself from him, rather if she refuses him and persists in doing so, he may hit her in a manner that does not cause injury, and she is not entitled to spending or a share of his time [in the case of plural marriage].” Majmoo’ al-Fataawa, 32/279"

If the women doesn't consent and the husband says ok I'm not feeding you anymore because you are disobedient to me, and then she says ok do what you have to, does that mean this is not rape anymore? Did the man really get the woman's consent?

There you go and I do hope when people are quoting the prophet (pbuh) they give some sort of reference at least, otherwise it becomes hearsay. Don't approach like a beast? Where's your proof and bring the Hadith reference.

My only point was why do we have to degrade our mothers and sisters to the level of a slave just to justify Islam to the Kuffar.

The bigger issue isn't sex with a slave girl, that is a given, a man in whose right hand he possess a female slave is bound to do something sometime even if it is for curiosity. If there is an issue here it is slavery. Also there is a clear verse in the Quran saying that one can have sex with a slave even if she is married. And the slave has no right to resist unless the owner decided she has a valid reason.

Salam

Saqqib

Brother no disrespect but I think you have been taught in a dubious way on how to learn Islam.



It's quite clear you have some underlying insecurity against women and that you feel you need power against them, whatever the case may be that's not for the discussion.

It is not permissible for her to rebel against him or to withhold herself from him, rather if she refuses him and persists in doing so...

Firstly it is talking persistence in doing so. Which means night after night the women refuses to fulfil the husband's rights. You implied at the beginning that if a woman refuses (once) the man may rape her (force sex). Two different points.

If the women doesn't consent and the husband says ok I'm not feeding you anymore because you are disobedient to me, and then she says ok do what you have to, does that mean this is not rape anymore? Did the man really get the woman's consent?

No where did Ibn Taymiah state that the husband may "stop feeding his wife". There is no known fatwa that allows the husband to starve his wife on the basis of her refusing sex. He may divorce her for not fulfilling his rights, but he cannot starve her, in fact the Quran and the Sunnah are against such behaviour. I don't know what kind of reasoning makes you arrive at such borderline ill conclusions.

Secondly even after all this your quote from Ibn Taymiah does not even have one letter of evidence suggesting that he may forcefully have sex with his wife, it goes against your point entirely. You are implying that the husband can stop feeding his wife if she refuses sex and therefore it's indirect force, but this is your strange conclusion.

There you go and I do hope when people are quoting the prophet (pbuh) they give some sort of reference at least, otherwise it becomes hearsay. Don't approach like a beast? Where's your proof and bring the Hadith reference.

I thought it was a well known hadith, hence no reference.

“None of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let their first be a messenger between you.” The Companions exclaimed, “What is that messenger?” The Prophet replied, “Kisses and (romantic) words!” (Reported by Al-Daylami)

Imam Ibn al-Qayyim (Allah have mercy on him) reports in his famous “Tibb al-Nabawi” that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) forbade from engaging in sexual intercourse before foreplay. (See: al-Tibb al-Nabawi, 183, from Jabir ibn Abd Allah)

How is a man meant to have sex forcefully with his wife (after she has refused) with romantic words and foreplay?

{O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may take away part of the dower [money given by the husband to the wife for the marriage contract] ye have given them, except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.} ( Qu’ran An-nisa 19)

"for justice is ordained for everyone, in all situations..." (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Quran 5:8).

Allah tells us that He commands His servant to be just, i.e., fair and moderate, and that He encourages kindness and good treatment. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir, uran 16:90).
The Prophet said: ”My Lord, I place particular importance on the rights of the two weak groups: orphans and women” (Narrated by Al-Nasa’i following Abu Shourayh)

'Allah will not be merciful to those who are not merciful to mankind.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 473)"

“They are garments for you and you are garments for them.” [Qur’an, 2.187]

“The most perfect of believers are those most perfect of character; and the best of you are the best of you to your spouses.” [Tirmidhi, Ibn Hibban]

“The best of you are the best to their wives, and I am the best of you with my wives.” [Ibn Hibban]

And of His signs is this: He created for you spouses from yourselves that ye might find rest
in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy. Lo! herein indeed are portents for folk who reflect. (Quran 30:21)


"If a man calls his wife to bed and she refuses, and then he sleeps angry, the angels shall curse her until he awakens.”

How can a man who is allowed to force his wife into sex going to sleep angry? This hadith clearly means a wife who refuses (without a valid reason, repeatedly) will be cursed. This clearly means the man cannot force her otherwise this whole hadith is pointless. Muhammad (pbuh) would have stated clearly if the wife refuses you may force her to have sex with you, but he didn't

On top of this anger is disliked in Islam anyway, so what the husband would be doing is disliked so again further proving the point.

So I state again explicitly and implicitly the Quran and the Sunnah do not allow marital rape and in fact are more for the opposite.

[Saqqib_Ali]

I think the only things worthy of pointing out would be the below:

Firstly it is talking persistence in doing so. Which means night after night the women refuses to fulfil the husband's rights. You implied at the beginning that if a woman refuses (once) the man may rape her (force sex). Two different points.

I did notice brother how you missed out the part where what happens if she persists to refuse.

Secondly your interpretation of what persists means is different to that proved by other scholars. Persists in this case is in the same night rather than night after night. I.e. husband wants to but wife refuses but husband Insists and wife persists to refuse.

What is being said about foreplay etc...This Is exactly how a husband would approach his wife and make his intention clear, the wife would thus refuse foreplay to indicate her refusal. It would be weird if the wife was ok and going along with the fore play and then refused when it came to fulfill the act.

How then does the husband go to sleep angry if it's the same night? Well, the husband isn't obliged or ordered to hit the wife it is up to him, he can turn around and say you know what I can't be bothered anyway, turn around and go to sleep angry.

Notice what the meaning of spending is meant here, it means spending to Do with clothing and feeding. Other scholars (e.g on islamq& a) explicitly mention this.

If anyone wants to discuss this they can create a new thread and I will contribute but to me the matter of this is quite clear, the nikah means the wife is not allowed to refuse the husband tha which is his right. That is what the mahr as payed for.

A man doesn't need permission from his wife because......she already gave the permission....three times at the nikah. And shes accepted mahr in return.

He doesn't need permission from his slave because she is property belonging to him. His property that he an use in anyway he wants.

Salam

Saqqib Ali

[Kuffs]

I think the only things worthy of pointing out would be the below:

Firstly it is talking persistence in doing so. Which means night after night the women refuses to fulfil the husband's rights. You implied at the beginning that if a woman refuses (once) the man may rape her (force sex). Two different points.

I did notice brother how you missed out the part where what happens if she persists to refuse.

Secondly your interpretation of what persists means is different to that proved by other scholars. Persists in this case is in the same night rather than night after night. I.e. husband wants to but wife refuses but husband Insists and wife persists to refuse.

What is being said about foreplay etc...This Is exactly how a husband would approach his wife and make his intention clear, the wife would thus refuse foreplay to indicate her refusal. It would be weird if the wife was ok and going along with the fore play and then refused when it came to fulfill the act.

How then does the husband go to sleep angry if it's the same night? Well, the husband isn't obliged or ordered to hit the wife it is up to him, he can turn around and say you know what I can't be bothered anyway, turn around and go to sleep angry.

Notice what the meaning of spending is meant here, it means spending to Do with clothing and feeding. Other scholars (e.g on islamq& a) explicitly mention this.

If anyone wants to discuss this they can create a new thread and I will contribute but to me the matter of this is quite clear, the nikah means the wife is not allowed to refuse the husband tha which is his right. That is what the mahr as payed for.

A man doesn't need permission from his wife because......she already gave the permission....three times at the nikah. And shes accepted mahr in return.

He doesn't need permission from his slave because she is property belonging to him. His property that he an use in anyway he wants.

Salam

Saqqib Ali

There is nothing i can say to you. If you are married, I pray your wife is safe and happy. You have a strange borderline rapist idea of how to treat a wife. You ignore everything the Quran and Sunnah say.



In conclusion you feel that a women gives her "permission" at the time of the Nikah and after this she can never refuse. If she refuses the man may keep trying and if she continues to refuse then he can rape her and stop giving her clothes and food. If this your thinking then I pray to Allah that all women are protected from you. Why don't you go to any decent man and say that to him about his daughter or a brother about his sister, you would be very popular.

You have this insecurity and I think it needs to be solved. A woman with a caring husband who actually loves her and not the sex alone will be happy to give her the right to refuse. Every human has the right even in marriage to refuse with a valid reason and no one can force sex on to them if she has a valid reason.

It's "brothers" like you that make me and other Muslims who want to care for the world doubt our faith. We want to stand up for women and keep them safe but you want to destroy their honour by saying that she has NO right to refuse because her permission was given many years back.

[mffhere]

brother Saqqib,

would it be possible for you to open a new thread and to put the evidence that you say a master can have sex with his slave even though she's already married? We all know that Islam stresses so much on a clarity of a lineage, and that's one of the reasons why adultery is forbidden in the first place, which would be contradicting to what you just said. Also could you please put a reference to the verse that you said *clearly* allows for a master to do this to his slave?

Assalamu Alaikum,

Your query seems to be answered in post # 40 by brother amr123

Similarly, if a slave woman was married previously in enemy territory to a non-Muslim, and is then captured alone, i.e. without her husband, it is not permissible for any Muslim to have relations with her until her previous marriage is nullified, and that is done by bringing her to an Islamic country and making her the legal possession of a Muslim. Bringing her into Islamic territory necessitates the rendering of her previous marriage as null and void by Islamic law because with her husband in enemy territory and she in Islamic territory, it becomes virtually impossible for them to meet and live as man and wife. That is why it is not permissible to have intercourse with a woman whose husband is also taken into captivity and put into slavery with her. Another resemblance between the two is that, just as a divorcee has to spend a period called "Iddat" before another man is allowed to marry her, similarly, a slave woman has to spend a period called "Istibraa" before her owner can have coition with her.

Wassalamu Alaikum

[Saqqib_Ali]

kuffs: There is nothing i can say to you.....

thought not, evidence from the scholars is too heavyily in my favour, don't hate me i'm just saying what they wrote hundred of tyears ago.

Imam Nawawi writes:

It is unlawful (haram) for the wife to refuse her husband for sexual intimacy without a valid reason. Menstruation will not be considered a valid reason, for the husband has a right to enjoy her from above the garment (on top of cloths). (Sharh Sahih Muslim, P. 1084)

Do you know what else is haram in islam? alcohol and swine.

If a wife refuses:

The husband needs to admonish her and remind her of the punishment of Allaah, and forsake her in her bed

If a woman is still defiant, then she no longer has the right to maintenance, because maintenance is in return for allowing her husband to have intercourse with her.

If she persists in her disobedience after he has admonished her and refused to share her bed and, if she persists even though he has refused to share her bed and not spoken to her for three days, then he may hit her, but not hard.

If she refuses with no excuse, she is disobeying and is being defiant (nushooz), and he is no longer obliged to spend on her and clothe her.

sorry,(or should I be sorry?), but this is what the scholars have stated with regards to where Islam stands on this topic.

salam

saqqib