Difference between contemporary Salafis and classical Atharis with regard to Aqeedah.

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Asalam 3leikoum wr wb,

I would like to know where this term Athari came from please? I have never seen the uulemah of old (before 300 years) refer to themselves by this term. Can someone please help me with this?


Fiamanillah

Okay let's call them Hanbali or Ahlul Hadeeth... The name doesn't matter in reality, it's the concepts related to the question in hand we are trying to understand.

[Yousef al-Khattab]

Wa3leikoum Asalam wr wb,

That was not my question akhi. I really wanted to know the source of that title since many Wahabis hide behind it. As per Hanabilah I see many of them also use this term, but in actuality are muqalids in Ibn Taymia, while even the 2nd most popular student Imam Dahabi r.A. disagreed with his teacher "in 3qeedah and in fiqh". Mufti asShaykh also satated that Ibn Taymiah "did not grow up upon the 3qeedah of ahlul Sunnah"(I am not saying that is true or false those are the Mufti's words).

I could be wrong but I think the problem is the Sahwi Wahabia are trying to reform themselves and associate themselves as followers in a madhab,when in fact they follow their own desires,khalaf & Harris Hammamism. As per 'Ahlul Hadeeth' their name sums up their corrupted methodology.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cayhW...B8A94DF5131E37
7.1 Aqeedatul 'Awaamm Class in Camden 6.29.2011 - Re: Adh Dhahabi and "the likes of these affairs"

At 9:25 He said "to Ibn Taymiyyah", He meant to say "to Al Haafidh Adh Dhahabi".

At 45:03 He meant to say, "And you are a creation and the sand is a creation". We all know that sand is not a human being.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLsT6vup12Q&feature=bf_next&list=PLA9B8A94 DF5131E37

[Abu Zakariya Yahya]

Wa3leikoum Asalam wr wb,

That was not my question akhi. I really wanted to know the source of that title since many Wahabis hide behind it. As per Hanabilah I see many of them also use this term, but in actuality are muqalids in Ibn Taymia, while even the 2nd most popular student Imam Dahabi r.A. disagreed with his teacher "in 3qeedah and in fiqh". Mufti asShaykh also satated that Ibn Taymiah "did not grow up upon the 3qeedah of ahlul Sunnah"(I am not saying that is true or false those are the Mufti's words).

I don't know what other Wahhabis hide behind, and to me these names are just that NAMES. Regardless of what you want to call it, it really doesn't matter, it's about the concept involved behind the name that makes it true or not.

As for being a Muqalid of Ibn Taymiyyah, I'm not sure what you're referring to.

If it's fiqh: There is no problem with this, and technically one would still be considered Hanbali for doing so.

If you mean Aqeedah: There is no Taqleed in Aqeedah, so either he was right or wrong. His statements just like the statements of all the Ulama have to be seen through the scope of Quran, Sunnah, and Salaf. That is why I never quote Ibn Taymiyyah in relation to Aqeedah points, EVEN IF he agreed with them, and that's why I quoted At-Tabari here. So if Ibn Taymiyyah knew the statement of At-Tabari and other "Athari, Ahlul hadeeth, Salafi, Hanbali, Non Asha'ri/Marutidi" scholars that's only because he was knowledgeable, so I'm not sure how him knowing about those statements and using them as a means to clarify the belief of Ahl Sunnah, makes him an innovator of that method when he wasn't the one to say the statement first.

I could be wrong but I think the problem is the Sahwi Wahabia are trying to reform themselves and associate themselves as followers in a madhab,when in fact they follow their own desires,khalaf & Harris Hammamism. As per 'Ahlul Hadeeth' their name sums up their corrupted methodology.

Again, Wahhabis have always been Hanbalis in Fiqh... Just because we didn't know about it (due to lack of the Arabic language or because we converted at a specific time) doesn't change the fact that historically this is a fact, so now that people are beginning to see the reality of what the Da'wah was originally in Fiqh, doesn't make it wrong. This is assuming you mean fiqh. As for desires, I don't know which desires they are following or in which way.

And I don't know what you mean by the corrupt methodology of Ahlul hadeeth, because we were speaking about it in the content of Aqeedah, in which Imam Ahmad said that they are the saved sect.... This is not talking about the "Ahl hadees" sect of India/Pakistan.

[Sulaiman84]

^ ^

Can one of the mods check this brother's post? Snap... I've read news reports less deceptive than that.

[Ansari]

Contemporary Salafis belong to the filthy mujassima and are in no way connected to the classical Atharis. They were mufawwida and remained silent on the attributes of Allah.

Comtemporary Salafis believe Allah is

-in a place,
-in a direction,
-has literal attributes and claim to know its meaning,
-condemn negating that Allah has body parts,
-has a boundry (hadd)
-literally above the arsh
-literally moves from one point to another
-remain silent when He wants
-qur'an is haadith

And many more evil beliefs. In an Islamic state they would receive lashes.

[Abu Salma]

Admins/mods should ban user "junfrared" for posting deviant links and Wahhabi propaganda.

[Ahlussunnah]

Don't execute Ibn Taymiyyah in each and every discussions related to aqeedah. He was much more moderate as compared to his early Hanbali predecessors, for they would consider Mutakallimeen to be heretics. Poor Ibn Taymiyyah only exposed Mutakallimeen through their own tool of Kalaam...which they weren't expecting from some Hanbali. Ibn Taymiyyah's works are still like a nightmare to them.... A brilliant scholar which people have not seen after him.

[Yousef al-Khattab]

Don't execute Ibn Taymiyyah in each and every discussions related to aqeedah. He was much more moderate as compared to his early Hanbali predecessors, for they would consider Mutakallimeen to be heretics. Poor Ibn Taymiyyah only exposed Mutakallimeen through their own tool of Kalaam...which they weren't expecting from some Hanbali. Ibn Taymiyyah's works are still like a nightmare to them.... A brilliant scholar which people have not seen after him.

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[Abu Salma]

The position of the Sunni 'ulama of the four madhhabs on the Wahhabis/Pseudo-Salafis is well-known. As this is a forum run by Deobandis, let me quote Mufti Ebrahim Desai (db) on that matter (my underlining):

The Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama'ah, that are found today, are made up of two groups viz. the Ashaa'irah and the Maatudridiyyah. The wahabis are classified as Ahlul Bidah and out of the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa'ah. (Al-Muhannad Pg.46).

Source: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...nah-wal-Jamaah

As we can see from the following quotes from well-known scholars of the past, Mufti Desai's view is the same as theirs:

Shaykh al-Islam Ahmad ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974/1567; R.A.)

Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Haytami defined the Sunni Muslims as follows in his book Fath al-jawad:

"A mubtadi (innovator) is the person who does not have the faith (aqid'ah) conveyed unanimously by the Ahl as-Sunnah. This unanimity was transmitted by the two great Imam's Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari (d.324/936; Rahimahullah) and Abu Mansur al-Maturidi (d.333/944; Rahimahullah) and the scholars who followed their path." Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Haytami also said in his book al-Fatawa al-Hadithiyya (pg. 205): "Man of bid'ah means one whose beliefs are different from the Ahl as-Sunnah faith. The Ahl as-Sunnah faith, is the faith of Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari, Abu Mansur al-Maturidi and those who followed them. One who brings forth something which is not approved by Islam becomes a man of bid'ah."

Imam Abdullah ibn Alawi al-Haddad (d. 1132 AH; Rahimahullah)

Imam al-Haddad stated in The Book of Assistance (pg. 40):

"You must correct and protect your beliefs and conform to the pattern of the party of salvation, who are those known from among the other Islamic factions as the "People of the Sunnah and Jama'ah" (Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah). They are those who firmly adhere to the way of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), and of his Companions (may Allah be pleased with them all).

If you look with a sound understanding into those passages relating to the sciences of faith in the Book (Qur'an), the Sunnah, and the saying of the virtuous predecessors, whether they be Companions or followers, you will know for certain that the truth is with the party called the Ashari (NB-the Maturidi's are also upon the truth), named after the Shaykh Abu'l Hasan al-Ashari, may Allah have mercy on him, who systematized the foundations of the creed of the people of the truth, and recorded its earliest versions, these being the beliefs with the Companions and the best among the followers agreed upon."

Source: http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ahlsunna.htm

So now that we know that the Ahl us-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah are the Ash'aris and Maturidis (and those who are within those same beliefs, like the real Atharis), then why is it that Wahhabis are being allowed to spread their propaganda on this SUNNI Forum? And why are Wahhabis/Pseudo-Salafis defended and people exposing their Batil da'wah attacked?

I think it's about time that the knowledgeable people on this forum kick the Sunni Da'wah into gear and take heed. A lot of young people and seekers are being drawn in by the flashy slogans of the Wahhabis and if they come to SF only to find that "Salafis are just another Sunni madhhab", while in fact they are Ahl ul-Bid'ah propogating a dangerous, erroneous 'Aqidah!

[Ahlussunnah]

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funny but useless