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Thread: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohtashims View Post
    Brother Zayn, I need to review and come back to you on this, however, wanted to know why did Imam Bukhari narrate from him in his Sahih Bukhari if he ever considered him to be weak?
    This has been answered:

    This could be true because just after Mu’ammal bin Isma’eel, in at-Tarikh al-Kabeer, Imam Bukhari listed Mu’ammal bin Sa’eed and declared him Munkar al-Hadith. It may be that some scholar mistakenly took it for Mu’ammal bin Isma’eel.

    However, on the other hand it also seems difficult because more than one scholars had attributed this to Bukhari, some have attributed the statement “Munkar al-Hadith” while some have attributed mere weakening without specifying any term. This includes the likes of Imam al-Mizzi, al-Dhahabi, al-Haythami, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani and al-Buqa’i. It is necessary, before reaching to a conclusion, that different manuscript of Tarikh Kabeer and other books on Rijal by al-Bukhari should be analyzed carefully. WAllahu A’alam.

    With regards to the claim of Shaykh Zai that Imam Bukhari has included his narrations in his “Saheeh” in support and hence he was Thiqah, this is again a false analogy.

    Imam Bukhari intentionally avoiding Mu’ammal and not taking him as hujjah, indicates that there was some reason for which he avoided him. Similarly Imam Muslim completely avoided him. Hafiz Abu Umar Ibn As-Salah said in his famous Muqaddimah on ‘ilmul hadeeth (pg.84), “Know that the narrations of those who is not Hujjah (as a narrator) and rather he is among weak narrators, is sometimes cited in case of Mutabi’ah and Shawahid. And in the book of Bukhari and Muslim there are several weak narrators cited as Mutabi’ah and Shawahid.”

    Inclusion of some weak narrators in Ta’aaleeq of Saheeh is a fact which cannot be denied. The following are narrators in Ta’aleeq of Saheeh:

    1. Ibrahim bin Isma’eel bin Mujamma’: Imam Bukhari said, “he was the person with a lot of doubts (Kathir al-Wahm)”.
    2. Huraith bin Abi Matar: Bukhari said, “feehi nazr”.
    3. Ubaidulla bin Sa’eed bin Muslim al-Ju’fi, Abu Muslim: Bukhari said,”feehi nazar”.
    4. Umar Abu Salamah bin Abdur-Rahman: Bukhari said,”Sadooq, except that he was opposed (by scholars) in some of narrations”.
    5. Imran bin Dawar: Bukhari, “truthful, he used to fall in doubts (yahim)”.
    6. Mu’awiyah bin Abdul Kareem: Ibn Abi Hatim said, “Bukhari listed him amongst weak narrators”.
    7. Yahya al-Kindi: Bukhari said, “He was not known and no one back (support) him (lam Yutaba’ alaih)”.
    One can refer to entries of these narrators in Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb by Ibn Hajar.

    Sh Zubair quoted from Muhammad bin Tahir al-Maqdisi that he said regarding a narrator, “In fact He (Bukhari) has taken narrations from him in many places as Istish-haad to indicate that he is Thiqah”, and then he (Sh Zai) himself concluded, “This proves that Mu’ammal is Thiqah according to Imam Bukhari, not Munkir ul-Hadeeth”.

    I say: The statement of al-Maqdisi is regarding some narrators of Sahihayn who were well famous scholars but still Shaykhain avoided them, except in Mutabi’ah or Shawahid. This doesn’t mean for every single narrators mentioned by Shaykhain in support or for back up. Even if we accept that al-Maqdisi meant it for every single narrator, then also there is no reason to blindly follow him and leave the facts described above. Therefore, I could not understand the basis for the statement of Shaykh Zubair Ali Zai that Mu’ammal was Thiqah according to Imam Bukhari.

    In conclusion, Imam Bukhari only mentioned Mu’ammal in Ta’aleeq, not in the main Ahadeeth of Sahih Bukhari. WAllahu A’alam.
    Wallahu A'lam
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


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    Question Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Quote Originally Posted by al_Zayn View Post
    This has been answered:

    Wallahu A'lam
    Brother Zayn,

    Would you be able to elaborate on the below for it to make easy and clear for me and others.

    1. Can you confirm the meaning of mutaba'ah = "follow-up" and shawahid ="witnesses".

    Can you tell us the more so close meaning of "Ta’aleeq"?

    2.
    Imam Bukhari intentionally avoiding Mu’ammal and not taking him as hujjah, indicates that there was some reason for which he avoided him. Know that the narrations of those who is not Hujjah (as a narrator) and rather he is among weak narrators, is sometimes cited in case of Mutabi’ah and Shawahid. And in the book of Bukhari and Muslim there are several weak narrators cited as Mutabi’ah and Shawahid.”
    Can you give an another example of a narrator who is considered weak by Imam Bukhari r.e.h himself, yet is present as a narrator or in the chain in Sahih Bukhari for any ahadees with the hadees and chain reference and explain us why is he used for Mutabi’ah and Shawahid and not as a Hujjah ?


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohtashims View Post
    Brother Zayn,

    Would you be able to elaborate on the below for it to make easy and clear for me and others.

    1. Can you confirm the meaning of mutaba'ah = "follow-up" and shawahid ="witnesses".

    Can you tell us the more so close meaning of "Ta’aleeq"?
    Mutabi'ah means where a weak narrator has for support another narrator who has followed him up in the same hadith of for the additions in that hadith.

    Shawahid is a weak narrator who has narrated a hadith who has for support other narrations with different chains.

    Ta'leeq means suspended and Imam Bukhari uses weak hadith in Ta'leeq form even for chapter headings and will bring a similar hadith (not the same hadith meaning) to support it. meaning Shawaahid.


    2.

    Can you give an another example of a narrator who is considered weak by Imam Bukhari r.e.h himself, yet is present as a narrator or in the chain in Sahih Bukhari for any ahadees with the hadees and chain reference and explain us why is he used for Mutabi’ah and Shawahid and not as a Hujjah ?
    I don't think you have understood, in some chapter headings and in Mu'allaq forms he narrates a hadith which is classified as weak because of a certain narrator (which he even disparages), but he may support it with an authentic hadith with different narrative and chain with maybe similar meaning on the same subject matter.

    Examples are already given;

    Inclusion of some weak narrators in Ta’aaleeq of Saheeh is a fact which cannot be denied. The following are narrators in Ta’aleeq of Saheeh:

    1. Ibrahim bin Isma’eel bin Mujamma’: Imam Bukhari said, “he was the person with a lot of doubts (Kathir al-Wahm)”.
    2. Huraith bin Abi Matar: Bukhari said, “feehi nazr”.
    3. Ubaidulla bin Sa’eed bin Muslim al-Ju’fi, Abu Muslim: Bukhari said,”feehi nazar”.
    4. Umar Abu Salamah bin Abdur-Rahman: Bukhari said,”Sadooq, except that he was opposed (by scholars) in some of narrations”.
    5. Imran bin Dawar: Bukhari, “truthful, he used to fall in doubts (yahim)”.
    6. Mu’awiyah bin Abdul Kareem: Ibn Abi Hatim said, “Bukhari listed him amongst weak narrators”.
    7. Yahya al-Kindi: Bukhari said, “He was not known and no one back (support) him (lam Yutaba’ alaih)”.
    One can refer to entries of these narrators in Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb by Ibn Hajar.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?



    Here is a passage from Tahzeeb of Ibn Hajr, talking about a narrator 'Ubaydullah Bin Sa'eed Bin Muslim al-Ju'fi al-Kufi, whose Kunyah is Abu Muslim (who is regarded as a weak narrator):

    [30] خت البخاري في التعاليق عبيد الله بن سعيد بن مسلم بن عبيد بن مسلم الجعفي أبو مسلم الكوفي قائد الأعمش روى عن الأعمش وهشام بن عروة وعبيد الله بن عمر ومالك بن مغول وصالح بن حيان روى عنه بن أخيه عمرو بن عثمان بن سعيد ويحيى بن أبي بكير الكرماني ومحمد بن عمر الرومي وعبد الله بن نمير وأبو مسلم بن واقد والحسين بن حفص الأصبهاني وخلاد يزيد الجعفي وغيرهم قال البخاري في حديثه نظر وقال الآجري عن أبي داود عنده أحاديث موضوعة وذكره بن حبان في الثقات وقال يخطىء قلت وذكره بن حبان أيضا في الضعفاء فقال كثير الخطأ فاحش الوهم ينفرد عن الأعمش وغيره بما لا يتابع عليه وقال العقيلي يكتب حديثه وينظر فيه

    You will see him mentioning that Imam al-Bukhari mentioned in him in Ta'aleeq form in the Sahih thereafter after mentioning those who he narrated from and those who narrated from him he mentions the verdicts of the Scholars of al-Jarh Wa al-Ta'deel, mentioning the first Jarh of Imam al-Buhkari saying: "Fi Hadithihi Nazar", which is an expression of al-Bukhari like Feehi Nazar meaning such and such is Munkar.

    Read this, it explains these terms Feehi Nazar and Fee Hadithihi Nazar etc of Imam al-Bukhari:

    http://www.saaid.net/Doat/saad/35.htm

    Anyway it is clear that mere mentioning in Ta'aleeq form of a narration in reality whose chain includes a weak narrator doesn't mean such a narrator is authentic to the principles of al-Bukhari rather he may use such to prove the meaning of the hadith with another narration or may have a Mutab'iah, etc.

    Wallahu A'lam
    Last edited by al_Zayn; 28-05-2012 at 05:20 PM.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?



    Another funny Usool used by the Ahlul Confused is that they use Imam al-Nasa'i as someone who made "Tawtheeq" on Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel because he narrated his hadith in his Sunan and remained silent:

    9) Imam Nasa'ee rah. = He narrated from him in his Sunan (4097, 4589)
    Sorry to burst their bubble, but in al-Sunan al-Kubra of al-Nasa'i he clearly states he is Katheer al-Khata':

    http://www.islamweb.net/hadith/displ...529&pid=375281

    رقم الحديث: 9529

    (حديث مرفوع) أَخْبَرَنِي عَلِيُّ بْنُ سَهْلٍ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا مُؤَمَّلٌ ، قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا شُعْبَةُ ، عَنْ عَاصِمٍ ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ ، عَنْ أُمِّ سَلَمَةَ ، أَن ّالنَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَانَ إِذَا خَرَجَ مِنْ بَيْتِهِ ، قَالَ : " اللَّهُمَّ أَنِّي أَعُوذُ بِكَ أَنْ أَزِلَّ أَوْ أَضِلَّ ، أَوْ أَظْلِمَ أَوْ أُظْلَمَ ، أَوْ أَجْهَلَ أَوْ يُجْهَلَ عَلَيَّ " . قَالَ أَبُو عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ : هَذَا خَطَأٌ : عَاصِمٌ عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ ، وَالصَّوَابُ : شُعْبَةُ عَنْ مَنْصُورٍ ، وَمُؤَمَّلُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ كَثِيرُ الْخَطَأِ . خَالَفَهُ بَهْزُ بنُ أَسَدٍ رَوَاهُ ، عَنْ شُعْبَةَ ، عَنْ مَنْصُورٍ ، عَنِ الشَّعْبِيِّ
    .


    After narrating a hadith (a du'a), Abu Abdir Rahman said: "This is an error, (meaning) from 'Asim from Sha'bi, The correct (chain) is Shu'bah from Mansur, Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel makes MANY MISTAKES, against him is Bahz Bin Asad in his transmission (of this hadith), (which states), from Shu'bah from Mansur"

    Again selective quoting by the Ahlul Confused.

    Wallahu A'lam.
    Last edited by al_Zayn; 29-05-2012 at 12:33 PM.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


  8. #36
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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    What about the chainless Jarah and the acceptance of a list of muhaddiseen shared in the rebuttal. Does it not out number the Jarah made on him vs the affirmation he recieved? Would you be able to have a look at the list provided ?


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohtashims View Post
    What about the chainless Jarah and the acceptance of a list of muhaddiseen shared in the rebuttal. Does it not out number the Jarah made on him vs the affirmation he recieved? Would you be able to have a look at the list provided ?


    Brother, im just linking the research of the Brother Mohammad Moin with the original Arabic text, a link to the Kitab if possible and translations, otherwise he ALREADY made the rebuttal to the list that you pasted, there is nothing new to respond to by him or anyone since no other rebuttal has come out after this.

    The Jarh Mufassar made on him outnumbers the Ta'deel

    Total Number of Criticizers = Abu Hatim, al-Fasawi, Nasai, Ibn Nasr al-Marwazi, As-Saaji, Ibn Sa’d, Daarqutni, Ibn Qani’, Ibn Hibban, Ahmad bin Hanbal [total 10, leaving aside Abu Zar'ah, Bukhari and Muta'akhir scholars].

    Total Admirers = Ibn Mu’een, Ibn Shaheen, Ibn Rahuyah [total 3, Leaving aside others and Muta'akhhir scholars].
    Wallahu A'lam.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


  10. #38
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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?



    Another claim is that Imam al-Daraqutni did "Tawtheeq" and that authenticating a hadith of Mu'mmal also means "Tawtheeq" upon him;

    7. Daraqutni: “Thiqah, makes many mistakes.” [Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb: 10/381]

    * This saying is contradictory to the praise of Imam Daraqutni as is coming ahead, and it is also not proven from The author of Tahdeeb to Daraqutni. Mu’ammal is not mentioned in the book of Imam Daraqutni “Kitaab ad-Du’afa wal Matrokeen”.
    And another:

    8. Ad-Daraqutni: Authenticated him in his Sunan. [2/186, H. 2261]

    * Daraqutni wrote about the chain of Mu’ammal from Sufyaan that, it is Saheeh. Meaning he is Saheeh ul-Hadeeth according to him from Sufyaan.
    Firstly the saying of Imam al-Daraqutni is mentioned in the Aqwal al-Daraqutni, in a question posed to him by Imam Abu Abdillah al-Hakim:

    http://islamport.com/w/mst/Web/2566/3829.htm

    قال الحاكم قلتُ للدَّارَقُطْنِيِّ مؤمل بن إسماعيل ؟ قال صدوق كثير الخطأ. 492

    al-Hakim said: "I said to al-Daraqutni (regarding) Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel: He replied Sudooq (truthful) but MANY MISTAKES".

    Also if you look in Imam al-Daraqutni's Sunan he quotes his teacher doubting the memory of Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel:

    http://www.islamweb.net/newlibrary/d...=76&startno=45

    2173 \ 9 - حدثنا أبو بكر النيسابوري ، ثنا حاجب بن سليمان ، ثنا مؤمل بن إسماعيل ، ثنا سفيان ، حدثني منصور ، عن أبي وائل ، قال : جاءنا كتاب عمر ونحن بخانقين : إن الأهلة بعضها أعظم من بعض ، فإذا رأيتم الهلال لأول النهار ، فلا تفطروا حتى يشهد رجلان ذوا عدل أنهما أهلاه بالأمس عشية . قال لنا أبو بكر : إن كان مؤمل حفظه فهو غريب . وخالفه الإمام عبد الرحمن بن مهدي .


    After narrating a hadith where Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel is in the chain Imam al-Daraqutni says: "Abu Bakr (al-Naysaburi) informed us that if Mu'ammal remembered it (this hadith) then it is Ghareeb, for he was opposed by al-Imam Abdur Rahman al-Mahdi".

    Mere authenticating a hadith can be done for many reasons, like Shawahid and Mutabi'ah. So to say such and such authenticated his hadith means Tawtheeq is at the least feeble.

    Wallahu A'lam.
    Last edited by al_Zayn; 30-05-2012 at 03:00 AM.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Can you also provide the quote and reference of Imam Mizzi regrads to Mu'ammal ?


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    Default Re: Is this a lie upon Imam Bukhari r.e.h ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohtashims View Post
    Can you also provide the quote and reference of Imam Mizzi regrads to Mu'ammal ?


    Here is the entry of Mu'ammal Bin Isma'eel in Tahzeeb al-Kamaal of Imam al-Mizzi:

    http://www.islamweb.net/hadith//disp...857&pid=288034

    نزيل مكة مولى آل عمر بن الخطاب ، وقيل : مولى بني بكر بن عبد مناة بن كنانة.

    روى عن إبراهيم بن يزيد الخوزي وحماد بن زيد خت وحماد بن سلمة ت وسفيان الثوري خت ت س ق وسفيان بن عيينة وشعبة بن الحجاج وعكرمة بن عمار اليمامي وعمارة بن زاذان الصيدلاني وفضيل بن عياض ومبارك بن فضالة ونافع بن عُمَرَ الجمحي ت وأبي هلال الراسبي قد روى عنه أَحْمَد بن إِبْرَاهِيمَ الدورقي العبدي وأحمد بن حَنْبَلٍ وأَبُو الجوزاء أَحْمَد بن عثمان النوفلي س وأحمد بن نصر الفراء النيسابوري س وإسحاق بن راهويه وأَبُو بشر بكر بن خلف وجعفر بن مسافر التنيسي وعثمان بن يَحْيَى القرقساني وعلي بن سهل الرملي سي وعلي بن المديني وأَبُو عمير عِيسَى بن مُحَمَّد بن النحاس الرملي ومثنى بن معاذ بن معاذ العنبري ومحمد بن بشار بندار ت س ق ومحمد بن سهل بن المهاجر الرقي ومحمد بن عبد المجيد التميمي وأَبُو كريب مُحَمَّد بن العلاء وأَبُو مُوسَى مُحَمَّد بن المثنى ت ومحمود بن غيلان المروزي ت ومؤمل بن إهاب وأَبُو يوسف يعقوب بن إِسْحَاقَ الجيزي # قال أَبُو بَكْرِ بْنُ أبي خيثمة ، عن يَحْيَى بن معين : ثقة.

    # وقال عثمان بن سعيد الدارمي : قلت ليحيى بن معين : أي شيء حال مؤمل فِي سفيان ؟ فَقَالَ : هو ثقة ، قلت : هو أحب إليك أَبُو عُبَيْد اللَّهِ ، فلم يفضل أحدا عَلَى الآخر.

    # وقال أَبُو حاتم : صدوق شديد فِي السنة كثير الخطأ.

    # وقال البخاري : منكر الحديث.

    وقال أَبُو عبيد الآجري : سألت أبا داود عن مؤمل بن إِسْمَاعِيلَ : فعظمه ورفع من شأنه إلا أنه يهم فِي الشيء # وذكره ابن حبان فِي كتاب الثقات.

    وقال غيره : دفن كتبه ، فَكَانَ يحدث من حفظه فكثر خطؤه.

    قال البخاري : مات سنة خمس أو ست ومائتين.

    وقال ابن حبان ، وأَبُو الْقَاسِمِ بْنُ أبي عَبْد اللَّهِ بن مندة : مات سنة ست ومائتين ، زاد بن مندة : فِي رمضان ، استشهد بِهِ البخاري وروى له أَبُو دَاوُدَ فِي القدر ، والباقون سوى مسلم.


    Red colours in Order

    First, Imam al-Mizzi mentioned the Jarh of Imam al-Bukhari (Munkar al-Hadith).

    Second, Imam al-Mizzi quoted al-Bukhari the year he (Mu'ammal) passed away.

    Third, Imam al-Mizzi mentions that al-Bukhari used him as Is-tish-haad (support).

    Wallahu A'lam.
    Last edited by al_Zayn; 29-05-2012 at 04:28 PM.
    It is reported from Abu Umamah from the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi WaSallam) that he said:

    اتَّقُوا فِرَاسَةَ الْمُؤْمِنِ ، فَإِنَّهُ يَنْظُرُ بِنُورِ اللَّهِ

    " Fear the Insight of the Believer, for verily he sees with the Light of God"

    رقم الحديث: 3362
    المعجم الأوسط للطبراني


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