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Thread: Slavery

  1. #11
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by fnaeem View Post


    forcing oneself upon ones wife is also not allowed. Regardless of the term used (marital rape or not). It is a dhulm. Mufti Ibn Adam in his Fiqh of Marriage series talks about this. In a nutshell he says, the famous hadith that a lot of people use. If a woman is called by her husband and she doesnt come, then the angels curse her. He builds the case that the angels curse a woman who doesnt come to her husband, the hadith doesnt say, that if a woman doesnt come to her husband when called, then husband goes and forcefully does his thing. The cursing of the angels and his right being denied and him not taking matters into his own hands are linked.

    In Islamic sharia, rape is adultery by force. So long as the woman is his wife/slave girl, it cannot be termed as rape. It is reprehensible, but we do not call it rape.


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  3. #12
    Senior Member amr123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Das View Post
    In Islamic sharia, rape is adultery by force. So long as the woman is his wife/slave girl, it cannot be termed as rape. It is reprehensible, but we do not call it rape.


    Bro, are you a scholar?
    Role of Imam Nawawi in Shafi'i Madhab: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...Usool-and-Fiqh


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  5. #13
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Salman_Hanafi View Post


    yes I understand there is no sin there, and there is no use being apologetic, I understand. But there is no evidence of anyone using force, so why not nip the evil in the bud...It would have been apologetic if you were hiding facts...but anyways Allahualam


    My posts deleted, please delete your responses and all your Insha'Allah.



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    Default Re: Slavery

    colonel saab. I'll delete my posts too.
    Mustafa Jaan-e-Rehmat pay Lakhon salam
    Shamae Bazme Hadayat pay Lakhon salam


  7. #15
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Das, can you please provide a source for the opinions on this issue that you've posted in this thread?
    Last edited by PursuitOfKnowledge; 01-08-2012 at 01:45 AM.
    "The world is a prison-house for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 042, Hadith No. 7058)

    "Islam initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange, so glad tidings to the stranger."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 01, Hadith No. 0270)


  8. #16
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Zadhan Abu Umar said: I came to Ibn Umar as he had granted freedom to a slave. He (the narrator further) said: He took hold of a wood or something like it from the earth and said: It (freedom of a slave) has not the reward even equal to it, but the fact that I heard Allah's Messenger May Allah's peace and praise be on him say:

    He who slaps his slave or beats him,

    the expiation for it is that he should set him free.



    (Muslim)

    and rape (forced sex) is invariably a more unpleasant assault for the one receiving it than a slap and generally more unpleasant than a beating - so what do you think of the case of one who forces himself upon his slave according to the words of the Prophet (saws) PursuitofKnowledge?


  9. #17
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    Default Re: Slavery

    ^What you posted was the opinion that I inclined towards based upon my knowledge of Islam, but I posted this here so that I could be directed to some scholarly opinions on the matter rather than trying to make up my own potentially incorrect explanations/analyses of this.
    Last edited by PursuitOfKnowledge; 01-08-2012 at 01:45 AM.
    "The world is a prison-house for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 042, Hadith No. 7058)

    "Islam initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange, so glad tidings to the stranger."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 01, Hadith No. 0270)


  10. #18
    Senior Member amr123's Avatar
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    Default Re: Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by PursuitOfKnowledge View Post
    ^What you posted was the opinion that I inclined towards based upon my knowledge of Islam, but I posted this here so that I could be directed to some scholarly opinions on the matter rather than trying to make up my own potentially incorrect explanations/analyses of this.
    Do post your query in http://daruliftaa.net/ or http://www.askimam.org/
    and post here what reply you get
    Role of Imam Nawawi in Shafi'i Madhab: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...Usool-and-Fiqh


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    Default Re: Slavery

    bro colonal why did you delete the post?


  12. #20
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    Default Re: Slavery

    I have reproduced below a reply from another thread that is relevant to the topic of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by تفويض View Post
    Regarding the women being controlled by men and slaves. Maybe I with the help of Allah SWT can contribute a little bit here.

    The problem with these two issues comes only once you look at 2 things.

    1). The behavior of certain Muslims
    2). Looking at Islam without the big picture

    Regarding the first, lets get that out of the way. Some Muslims are not very good. If they are oppressive to their women, it doesn't reflect Islam. I trust this is clear and you agree with that which means we can move onto the more important matter, that of not looking at the bigger picture.

    You see, when you only focus on one aspect, and miss the rest, you get problems. Like in science, if you are designing a method of keeping time and you start looking at an isolated case of pendulums swinging back and forth in a vacuum you will derive certain conclusions about its nature and behavior. But, you didn't take everything into account missed the bigger picture. You looked at the pendulum only from the point of view of it in a vacuum and ignored what it does in the real world where there is air resistance and other damping forces which affects the swings of the pendulums. This omission of detail will lead you to fail in designing a watch which is able to accurately keep the time, as it will either be inaccurate or run out steam very quickly. Thus, by neglecting certain factors, you missed the big picture and did not achieve your target at all of designing a good time keeping device.

    This is what you are doing with these two issues of women being 'controlled' by men and the issue of slaves in Islam. You are isolating a few certain rulings in these areas, and completely neglecting the others resulting in a correct understanding of a few rules (such as being allowed to have sex with slaves analogous to the rule that a pendulum swinging in vacuum will never stop swinging) while disregarding others (such as, but given an atmosphere the amplitude will reduce with each swing until it the pendulum comes to rest) giving you an overall incorrect or deficient understanding of the whole thing.

    So yes, in Islam you are allowed to have sex with slaves. This is a correct ruling. But there is a but, there are other things too. Such as the fact that Islam teaches you to respect human beings and treat them with kindness and love. It forbids a man from violently hurting anyone, including his wives/slaves. It talks about treating people well and understanding peoples temparaments and talks about patience etc.

    Thus, while a man may have sex with his slave, that does not give him the write to force himself on her. I believe you are aware of Imaam Maalik and Imaam Shafi'ee Rahimahumallah:

    In our view the man who rapes a woman, regardless of whether she is a virgin or not, if she is a free woman he must pay a "dowry" like that of her peers, and if she is a slave he must pay whatever has been detracted from her value. The punishment is to be carried out on the rapist and there is no punishment for the woman who has been raped, whatever the case. (Imam Maalik, Al-Muwatta', Volume 2, page 734)

    "If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

    However, they deal with slaves not belonging to a man. What about a slave that belongs to a man?

    In an authentic narration from Sunan Al Bayhaqi, Volume 2, page 363, Hadith no. 18685 we read the following story:

    Abu al-Hussain bin al-Fadhl al-Qatan narrated from Abdullah bin Jaffar bin Darestweh from Yaqub bin Sufyan from al-Hassab bin Rabee from Abdullah bin al-Mubarak from Kahmas from Harun bin Al-Asam who said: Umar bin al-Khatab may Allah be pleased with him sent Khalid bin al-Walid in an army, hence Khalid sent Dharar bin al-Auwzwar in a squadron and they invaded a district belonging to the tribe of Bani Asad. They then captured a pretty bride, Dharar liked her hence he asked his companions to grant her to him and they did so. He then had sexual intercourse with her, when he completed his mission he felt guilty, and went to Khalid and told him about what he did. Khalid said: 'I permit you and made it lawful to you.' He said: 'No not until you write a message to Umar'. (Then they sent a message to Umar) and Umar answered that he (Dharar) should be stoned. By the time Umar's message was delivered, Dharar was dead. (Khalid) said: 'Allah didn't want to disgrace Dharar'

    Clearly you cannot rape your wife or your slave.

    Now you might say why Islam gives the right to have sex with slaves. Well again you need to look at the bigger picture. When there is war, men die, women are left behind. At the time slavery was very common and to abolish it outright would have caused issues the societal structure was not ready for. Thus Islam allowed slavery but emphasised the superiority of manumitting slaves thus establishing the means to eventual eradication of slavery. While it was being practiced however, these women who lost their husbands in war for eg would be looked after by the Muslim men as their slaves and treated well as per the teachings of Islam. One of those teachings is the right to sexual relations by which a slave woman upon pregnancy receives the title of Umm-Walad and her children are born free from slavery with the right to inherit (please check the inheritance part, my brain is rusty here. I am sure they do but to save my own back I will add I am not 100%). Thus slavery is not what you think it to be, the back whipping, massive boulder pulling slaves you see associated with movies about Pharoahs. Rather, it was a system that was accepted by Islam due to the sensitive nature but rules where laid down to their treatment and to the eventual abolishment.

    There are countless narrations which talk about treating slaves well:

    Saheeh Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29

    Narrated Al-Ma'rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.

    Sahih Muslim Book 015, Number 4086

    Abu Mas'ud al-Badri reported: I was beating my slave with a whip when I heard a voice behind me: Understand, Abu Masud; but I did not recognise the voice due to intense anger. He (Abu Mas'ud) reported: As he came near me (I found) that he was the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he was saying: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; bear in mind. Abu Mas'ud. He (Aba Maslad) said: threw the whip from my hand. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Bear in mind, Abu Mas'ud; verily Allah has more dominance upon you than you have upon your slave. I (then) said: I would never beat my servant in future.

    Saheeh Muslim Book 015, Number 4082:

    Hilal b. Yasaf reported that a person got angry and slapped his slave-girl. Thereupon Suwaid b. Muqarrin said to him: You could find no other part (to slap) but the prominent part of her face. See I was one of the seven sons of Muqarrin, and we had but only one slave-girl. The youngest of us slapped her, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) commanded us to set her free.

    So when a master slapped his slave and thus the Messenger SAW ordered her set free, how then can it logically follow that raping them is ok? The right to sex does not imply the right to rape. They are two completely different things.

    The last contention you might have is but what slave will allow her master to have sex with her? But back then the mentality was different. From a non-Muslim source:

    Women who followed their father and husbands to the war put on their finest dresses and ornaments previous to an engagement, in the hope of finding favor in the eyes of their captors in case of a defeat. (John McClintock, James Strong, "Cyclopędia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" [Harper & Brothers, 1894], p. 782)

    Women in such situations knew they might become captives and took such precautions like trying to attract a captor. Now, of course, no-one is saying every slave will go along happy as a daisy, adjustment would take time but eventually they would settle into their new life just as most people after a period of grief move on and start new relationships when there spouses pass away. With the character of the sahabah, I do not doubt it was a 'little' easier to adjust to such men than it would have been to brutes who had no concept of morality.

    I will leave it here, I feel it has been dragged on more than necessary, the too long didn't read is that you are looking at it from one angle. When you take into account all the teachings, you cannot deny the wisdom. Yes you can have sex with slaves and with your wives, but that does not mean you can rape them, or hit them, beat them, treat them harshly etc etc.

    If you just focus on, 'It's my right to have sex,' no doubt many modern Muslim men with little understanding of Islam would interpret this to mean there is no rape in marriage and thus would force themselves on their wives. No doubt this happened with slaves too. But that is the fault of the men that they did not take the teachings in it's entirety, in fact they didn't even understand that the teaching of having the right to have sex does not mean you can force yourself.

    Similar cases can be made for the marriage where there are certain things you mentioned like a woman listening to the husband etc etc. The bigger picture is missing and you are looking at the marriage from one small angle and overlooking the rest which would serve to create a better understanding, just like with the slaves.

    I really will leave it here now, I am a bit tired from writing this. I hope it made some sense. I am hoping if you understood the slave issue the other women issue will make sense, or it will if you look into marriage more. If the slave issue didn't make sense then I am not sure what more to say regarding that front but pray Allah SWT can send you someone better than me to explain it.
    "The world is a prison-house for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 042, Hadith No. 7058)

    "Islam initiated as something strange, and it would revert to its (old position) of being strange, so glad tidings to the stranger."
    (Sahih Muslim Book 01, Hadith No. 0270)


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