what exactly is wrong with Jamat e Islami's politics?

[Abu Hamza Deccani]

I have my own half-baked "analysis" but I'd like to hear your, Maripat's and other qualified opinions regarding the reasons for salafis' and ahl-e-hadiths's success amongs the youth, the "modern educated Muslims", etc.
Is it just about their efforts and pro-activity, or do you think there is a "common language" and compatibility between their "modern education" and the ideological roots of the salafi method (disregarding authority, self-study, arrogance, etc.)?

This topic needs a separate thread and we better stick to this JI- Ikhwan analysis. However, since the reasons for acceptance of salafi and JI among the educated and students are mostly common, I will comment in short here.
I think it's a bit of both plus the ideological impacts of democracy-secularism-mass media culture-individualism pervading globally and the breakdown of traditional social structures and power centers which has led to a sort of anarchy, loss of respect for hierarchy and leadership in every aspect of human life (more impacting the Muslim societies). Moreover , the salafi "give me daleel from authentic hadith" approach makes the common religiously uneducated Muslim feel safe and comfortable that he is doing the right thing. And as most of the Awaam are unaware of the intricacy and depth of the sources and their possible interpretations of the Deen, they fall for this trap very easily.

[Maripat]

This topic needs a separate thread and we better stick to this JI- Ikhwan analysis. However, since the reasons for acceptance of salafi and JI among the educated and students are mostly common, I will comment in short here.
I think it's a bit of both plus the ideological impacts of democracy-secularism-mass media culture-individualism pervading globally and the breakdown of traditional social structures and power centers which has led to a sort of anarchy, loss of respect for hierarchy and leadership in every aspect of human life (more impacting the Muslim societies). Moreover , the salafi "give me daleel from authentic hadith" approach makes the common religiously uneducated Muslim feel safe and comfortable that he is doing the right thing. And as most of the Awaam are unaware of the intricacy and depth of the sources and their possible interpretations of the Deen, they fall for this trap very easily.

I suppose this nearly all that is to it - the problem of youth being attracted. Of course the solution is a different thing altogether but we can leave that for another thread.

In Towards Understanding Islam Maulana Maududi describes the basics of Islam and this is the book that is prescribed for the basic compulsory course on Deenyat for Muslim graduates. When Maulana comes to Jihad his tone changes. He tries to pull you towards his way of thinking. Now this is a point where no-compulsion in religion should apply. You might have an opinion but pulling others towards it is not Islamic way. This lack of ease in presenting Jihad is at the root of our difference with our brothers on that side. If you have point that is truth then it will defend itself. Syed Qutb's case is slightly different. I suppose there is some truth in the diagnosis that Jamaluddin Afghani, Maulana Maududi and Syed Qutb made but the solution is what did miss the mark. Whatever little I know of Afghani tells me that there was no solution there. Personal conditions of Syed Qutb were extreme, of course because of the ideology he adopted and Allah (SWT) will reward him for that, but a person facing extreme conditions has only one avenue - to rise and rise personally. That is what is his case. Social and Ummah level movement needs cool and calculated measures of slow and constant striving. But Maududi's case is the clearest one. He assumed and asserted that you can not implement all these measures of Islam unless you have the Khilafa, the Islamic government.
This might sound like a very logical thing but it does have one negative implication. Focus now shifts from implementation of Islam in your life to wrest control of government. Of course the intention is know to us - it is pious for you want to implement Shariah. This shifted focus from implementing Islam in your life to political struggle for governance and control is the thing where they got stumped by reality. You can implement a lot of Shariah in your life even in an inconvenient country like India. And to wrest control of government is difficult even in a convenient country like Pakistan.

Having said that I would like to add a few elements of reality - my apologies for venting personal opinion in above paragraph. When I started having qualms about JI the local unit head asked me a rhetoric question. He said that tell me any other way forward. His assertion was that JI is the only way forward. This is the character of an active, assertive approach. It is very difficult to resist even a weak preposition. Of course I did not have answer to his assertion. I, with difficulty, developed a distance from them because in spite of a mission that they do have the soul of Islam was conspicuous by its absence.

The same person also told me that in many countries, Malaysia, Indonesia, Algeria and Egypt the corresponding people have enough preparation that they can smoothly ease themselves into governing if the responsibility comes to them. I find this a remarkable assertion and I mention it because this is one element that about which I do not find much concern in the environment that I have now. I have not gone through the Ali Miyan (RA) book cited above but in such matters I my feeling is that Ali Miyan (RA) stops well before the threshold. In Indian context Jamiat-Ulema-e-Hind has been in the field for nearly a century but at the moment I can not make any personal judgement about its efficacy. I'll appreciate if some one can do the needful. I, of course, have become a fan of Maulana Badruddin Ajmal Sahab Qasmi (DB) for making a dent into the politics of Assam state of India.

I'll conclude by mentioning a small bit. Maulana Marghoob-ur-Rahman Sahab (RA) has a title of Amir-ul-Hind also. Now that has gone to Qari Usman Sahab Mansoorpuri (DB). And indeed the sentiment behind this little formality is that Muslims should not be without a head.

A lot need to be talked about these things. I am always glad when brothers take up these topics (or the science, economy related things) and I hope that this will get more attention from us in future.

[mh16388]

I have my own half-baked "analysis" but I'd like to hear your, Maripat's and other qualified opinions regarding the reasons for salafis' and ahl-e-hadiths's success amongs the youth, the "modern educated Muslims", etc.
Is it just about their efforts and pro-activity, or do you think there is a "common language" and compatibility between their "modern education" and the ideological roots of the salafi method (disregarding authority, self-study, arrogance, etc.)?

i would like to know as well

p.s i read some brother's analysis somewhere where he stated that it is the 'revolutionary' type approach of the salafis where they claim they are the 'saviors' of ahl ul sunnah that attracts many young people.
i was attracted because of the wish to follow authentic Islam. immediately however i dumped the hanafis out of authentic Islam and adopted sahih bukhari as my book of fiqh.

[Abu Hamza Deccani]

I have not gone through the Ali Miyan (RA) book cited above but in such matters I my feeling is that Ali Miyan (RA) stops well before the threshold.

Can you please elaborate it?

[skhkmomin]

Pakistan and Egypt are good samples of evaluating the methodology followed by JI. The results are there for everyone to see. Utter Failure !!!

[Maripat]

Can you please elaborate it?

I can offer only mild hints. He (RA), like Maulana Manzoor Nomani (RA) had some affinity with Maulana Maududi who became famous because of his book Al-Jihad Fil-Islam. You do not find this topic breached in Ali Miyan (RA)'s repertoire. Then there is the matter of Dawah to non-Muslims. Ali Miyan (RA) began a movement called Payam-e-Insaaniyat, message of humanity. It is Dawah but it stops much before the crossing line.

[Abu Hamza Deccani]

I can offer only mild hints. He (RA), like Maulana Manzoor Nomani (RA) had some affinity with Maulana Maududi who became famous because of his book Al-Jihad Fil-Islam. You do not find this topic breached in Ali Miyan (RA)'s repertoire. Then there is the matter of Dawah to non-Muslims. Ali Miyan (RA) began a movement called Payam-e-Insaaniyat, message of humanity. It is Dawah but it stops much before the crossing line.

ok. Maulana Manzoor Nomani writes in his book on his relations with M. Maududi that the latter had offered him and other Ulema to become the Ameer of JI when it was formed but they declined as they felt they were not capable of such leadership responsibility and so he was made TO BECOME THE AMEER! (he writes something along these lines).
Even after Ali mIyan and Maulana Manzoor Nomani (RA) came out of the JI, they did not or could not start any other movement which addressed the main reasons why they had initially joined the JI (compare with Dr Israr Ahmed in PAK)! This is not to belittle these stalwart Ulema and their innumerable services, but this provided the JI to become the default movement for struggle to establish the 'Islami Nizam'. SO, the growth and penetration in the educated masses of the JI first and now by neo-salafis (powered by peace TV and internet) is due to the percieved failure of the traditional Ulema to provide leadership and a viable platform to these groups and satisfy their deeni aspirations and needs in changing scenarios.
See one of my older threads and the pitiable response it got. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/arch...p/t-59125.html

[Maripat]

ok. Maulana Manzoor Nomani writes in his book on his relations with M. Maududi that the latter had offered him and other Ulema to become the Ameer of JI when it was formed but they declined as they felt they were not capable of such leadership responsibility and so he was made TO BECOME THE AMEER! (he writes something along these lines).
Even after Ali mIyan and Maulana Manzoor Nomani (RA) came out of the JI, they did not or could not start any other movement which addressed the main reasons why they had initially joined the JI (compare with Dr Israr Ahmed in PAK)! This is not to belittle these stalwart Ulema and their innumerable services, but this provided the JI to become the default movement for struggle to establish the 'Islami Nizam'. SO, the growth and penetration in the educated masses of the JI first and now by neo-salafis (powered by peace TV and internet) is due to the percieved failure of the traditional Ulema to provide leadership and a viable platform to these groups and satisfy their deeni aspirations and needs in changing scenarios.
See one of my older threads and the pitiable response it got. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/arch...p/t-59125.html

Six pages of response is not pitiable akhi. Mostly my threads do not enter into second page. By the grace of Allah (SWT) things are changing. Many of the brothers here are versed in modern education and they are looking for religious outlook which is quite heartening. Once they get firm footings there then my hope is that they shall hit the high way, not to be stopped by any adversary, bi-idhnillah. I suppose we can facilitate that confidence in them. Personally I got it in a Seerah programme, by the Grace of Allah (SWT), in which Hazrat Maulana Abdul Karim Pareekh Sahab (RA) was participating. Also we can utilize our time here in efforts to integrate the Deeni and modern sections of Muslim. I have a thread or two about that also.

And for breaching the subject.

[London786]

This has to be one of the most interesting threads I have come across in recent times. The issue of politics and islam always makes me shudder as the kind of opinions I hear from the so-called deeni people are always shocking. I'm a strong advocate of a return to islamic governance and its emphasis and for this I will proudly state my acclaim for maulana maududi and his jamaat. I first came across the issue of islamic state/governance etc highlighted by the great imam mujadid shaheed hasan al banna raheemullah. With regards to the little that I experienced in my life and from travelling to some parts of the world and staying there I realized one thing that islamic shariah/governance may not be the be all and end all but it is surely one of our solutions amongst the many solutions. Let us take the issue of an unnamed muslim country that I was in for sometime and the following experiences I had;

1. All fatwa, speeches, imams etc appointed by the government. Duroos are banned in most places and the imam reads the khutbah written by the government word for word in most cases.
2. The only real islam taught in the country is in the schools by teachers who hardly practice islam themselves and based on a ciriculum which offers very little.
3. Tabligh work is severely restricted nowdays in that particular country with many workers of the noble effort being deported.
4. Any person with open islamic inclinations will be moved from the government jobs. Nationals will be moved to jobs where they can have little influence whilst foreigners are deported. E.g. people who were in the education ministry with islamist leanings were moved to admin jobs elsewhere.
5. The beard denies many employment

etc etc

Now you tell me in such a country except for some sort of removal of the regime or reform to make it islamic what other thing will realistically work. 20 years of strong tableegh effort is wiped out in a single decree by the rulers.

History has told us this in Algeria. The Algerians gave sacrifice in jihad against the French and thereafter there was a strong dawah campaign but the french led generals came and in a single stroke dismissed all religious people from their posts, shut all duroos, arrested and killed thousands of ulema haqq etc. This has happened everywhere in the muslim world. The ministry of religious affairs in every part of the muslim world controls all masjids and ulema, all institutes are controlled by the government stooges and any dissent is cracked down on. Religious muslims with any apparent sign of religiousity are tortured, threatened, deprived of jobs etc.

Now tell me in such a situation what else can a person do except persue the course of islamic governance and totally annihalate the enemies of islam??? Do you think a person can compromise with such people or work with them in anyway? Look at the ulema of shaam who were loyal to the alawi regime? Has this managed to save the syrian people? Anyway its a complex topic....

[Colonel_Hardstone]

I can offer only mild hints. He (RA), like Maulana Manzoor Nomani (RA) had some affinity with Maulana Maududi who became famous because of his book Al-Jihad Fil-Islam. You do not find this topic breached in Ali Miyan (RA)'s repertoire. Then there is the matter of Dawah to non-Muslims. Ali Miyan (RA) began a movement called Payam-e-Insaaniyat, message of humanity. It is Dawah but it stops much before the crossing line.

Shaykh (Maulana) Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) was a strong/vocal supporter of Secularism as discussed by him here

Although Shaykh (Maulana) Abul-Hasan Ali Nadwi (RA) uses the words Secularism himself, I believe that he truly means the freedom to practise one's own religion and uses the term Secularism as a common term which is familiar to Indians.