Difference between Salafis(Arabs) and Ahle Hadees(Sub-Continent)

[baytul-herz]

Everything you said I agree with mostly,but there seems to be some confusion either on my part or your part in understanding eachother.


What I am saying to you akhi is simple.


We cannot say that Allah is "above literally" ,because my dear brother literal aboveness is direction.

No sane person would say literally being above something isn't a direction.

Dhahir means the intended meaning of a particular ayaat,it has nothing to do with single words such as "yad".

For example what is the dhair meaning of me saying this "Allah created adam with his hands".

The dhahir meaning is "Allah created Adam ".

Or for example, "Allah shall raise us up on the day of judgement".

And then someone comes along and says "well this verse means Allah SWT will raise us up in heaven,it doesn't mean resurrection".


This goes against the dhahir.



The reason why they stressed "dhahir",is because of many groups such as the mutazilites. The mutazilites would deny obvious things in the Qur'an for weak taweel,such as denying the mizan,denying resurrection,seeing Allah,etc.

I hope the distiction between haqeeqi(litearl) and dhahir(intended) is clear.

[PeaceSeeker]

Wa Allahu alim, I'd prefer to just leave it at that insha`Allah because I'm planning on withdrawing from internet forums for a while. Fi aman Allah.

[mohtashims]

I took classes from him and attended a few suhbas of Sheikh Keller - I spent a lot of time reading endless explanations on all of the topics and came to my own conclusions based off of the soundest of opinions. I then studied (and continue to study insha`Allah) under a Sheikh who is teaching me the Hanbali madh`hab.

So, if you happen to find Shafa'ee opinion more stronger than Hanbali opinion would you follow that ? If yes, doesn't this mean rejecting Taqleed ?

Also, do you know about the Ahle Hadees sect in the Indian Sub-Continent.

Do you believe they are the same as the Arab Salafis ?

[junfrared]

So, if you happen to find Shafa'ee opinion more stronger than Hanbali opinion would you follow that ? If yes, doesn't this mean rejecting Taqleed ?

Asalam Alikum,

Mohtashim, layman don't reject or accept the "derivative" opinions (Fiqhi Masail, فروعي مسائل), they only ask to "true Mufti" or "Naqil Mufti" ~ means "Ulama e rabbani"

Then a "true Mufti" pick and choose from all opinions to see which one is more stronger, then declare a fatwa for laymen and for "Naqil Muftis", further Naqil Muftis implement that fatwa again if anybody ask again that question, with some different details.

So principally there is no madhhab of a layman, actually his madhhab what is Muftis' madhhab. This is an actual, factual, and practical thing, so no one can deny it. Now whether you say it Taqleed Shakhsi or non-Shakhsi or Itiba, everyone, (salafi, AeH, Deos, Barelvis) all are doing this, whether AeH "theoretically" accept it or not, we all are doing it.

But beware this is only belongs to "derivative" opinions (Fiqhi Masail, فروعي مسائل). In principle Fiqhi, creedal issues we (laymen) cannot rely merely upon Scholars, Seeing the evidence of Quran/Hadith and from Companions radiall ta'ala anhum ajmaeen and from Early Muslim is generally necessary.

Otherwise an "Alim-e-Soo" will tell you, Prophet has absolute authority all over the creations, or Prophet or Awliya were/are omni-present before or after their death- (creedal issues)-, or say celebrate the Prophet/Awliya's birthday-(Fiqhi issue), Do my taqleed or Itiba in these issues, he also will give you some manipulated interpretations, some fake/Muzoo' ahadith, some (chain/base)less quotations and some quotations overall belongs to very later part of this Ummat i.e. after 7th century Hijri. So applying the above mentioned procedures (whether you say it "asking" or Itiba or Taqleed or.....) to Principle issue extremely wrong and dangerous.

Also, do you know about the Ahle Hadees sect in the Indian Sub-Continent.

Do you believe they are the same as the Arab Salafis ?

This very subtle question, so please don't ask everybody, they will confuse you. I've told you:

There is no difference of Aqaid among the "Modern AeH" (Sub-Continent) and Salafis (Saudis, Arab) and Deodandis (who are Rasikh Fil Ilim) (generally, and in Tawhid and Attributes specifically)

Now " Modern AeH" (Sub-Continent) are copying the Fiqih methodology of Salafis (Saudis, Arab), therefore this difference is now also ending. That’s why I told you on Haqforum, our brothers are discussing the past, not present.

Only the existing difference is:

AeH exhibit extremity in Fiqh opinions,
AeH not take the Alim or Ulama serious (means considering everyone can read Bukhari without due knowledge)
They don’t pay due attention, give proper time to educate their selves; generally they quit the institutional education, when it is not good to leave. In fact people of sub-continent don’t know actually, how much this Alim is hard to achieve.
That’s why generally they are not strong in Alim as Salafis are.
Beware about Ha Mim Keller, He is a barelvi (means have barelvi aqeedah).

[AimeSi]

People who quote Ibn taymiyya often do it to go against the majority of the scholars.

They quote him to give direction to Allah,give literal hands,feet,fingers,etc.

This is why it is such a disaster for people to even consider him as a valid source of Islamic information.

Many scholars have written that the 'aqidah of Allama Ibn Taymiyya is correct, you may think otherwise, but I'll stick to the view which consider that the 'aqidah of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya was correct.
And many 'ulamas, even sometimes when they disagree with him in 'aqidah still consider him as a valid source of knowledge and that's enough for me.

No.
All agree is 20,the extra rakat you seem them doing are nawafil.
Shaykh Riyudal haq explains this nicely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw99jkZboPA

Thanks for the lecture, I'll listen to it in few days inshâAllah.
But my point was not to say what is the correct view on the number of rak'ats, my point was to say :
-not all salafi make 8 rak'ah
-not all salafi consider that making 20 rak'ah is a bid'ah.
-they have another interpretation on this issue basing themselves on the same athâr and by considering those extra rak'ah must be included in tarâwih

Do a search on it akhi,there are a few narrations.

The narrations I found regarding this was about Abu Bakr or about Zayd ibn Haritha .
Concerning the first narration, the position of Shaykh Ramadan Al-Bûti is worth of reading.
http://mahdinnm.blogspot.com/2011/01...ancing-in.html
Like you probably known the Shaykh is far from being a salafi but yes he agrees with them on this issue.

So if we establish that dancing was done out of religious happiness,then its furu saying allahu akbar or other forms of dhikr would directly stem from that usool.

First of all, it need to be establish that it was done out of religious happiness.
Even if it's established the salafis will not agree on using it as a daleel for the permissibility of what it is done by some sufis, for many reasons, the first one probably being that there is no narrations regarding the sahabas or the salafs rahimahumullah doing it except in that particular occasion.
As for the issue of hadrah or some sufi dance, again, we can say that the salafis are not alone on this issue and so it's not a frontier line between the salafis and the rest of the sunnis.

There is no debate that the companions used to sing collectively poems and religious material.
Even the salafies agree.

For the sake of the discussions, I'll stick to this to and not go in the details.

I study under deobandi ulema,but that doesn't mean that they are correct on every single issue.
We have to be balanced akhi.

You're right and that's why I've written "amongst other", and again if you ponder on what you're write, it doesn't mean the salafis are wrong on every single issue where you disagree with them.

Akhi,no one said it was the "way" of the scholars. Rather we use it t codify our deen and defend it when the need arose.
Kalam was only rejected for a specific reason at the time of the salaf.

What was this reason ? Could you elaborate on this ?

He didn't use kalam? Really who told you that?
He used to debate the mu'tazilites on a regular basis.

Obviously we doesn't meand the same thing when we use the word "kalâm", you seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) to class in kalâm every works related to 'aqidah, different religions and sects and refuting them while by "kalâm", I mean what was done by later scholar like Al-Ash'ari, Al-Maturidi, Al-Ghazali etc rahimahumullah which was the use of the same methods used by other firqa and making some ta'wil of some verses which was not done by the salafs or the companions .
And to be clear, I'm not saying the companions or the salafs made no ta'wil at all and I'm neither saying that what the mutakallimun have done is wrong or that they've gone astray.

As regards for there still being a need,the need is now more than ever.
Atheists,christians,wahabis,etc.

for having answering my question.

[baytul-herz]

Bismillah.

Many scholars have written that the 'aqidah of Allama Ibn Taymiyya is correct, you may think otherwise, but I'll stick to the view which consider that the 'aqidah of Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya was correct.
And many 'ulamas, even sometimes when they disagree with him in 'aqidah still consider him as a valid source of knowledge and that's enough for me.

Please show us which scholar said his aqeeda is correct.

Anyone who believes Allah SWT has literal fingers,feet,shin,etc,is not from ahlus sunnah.

Anyone who believes that Allah SWT is in a literal direction is not from ahlus sunnah.

But my point was not to say what is the correct view on the number of rak'ats, my point was to say :
-not all salafi make 8 rak'ah
-not all salafi consider that making 20 rak'ah is a bid'ah.
-they have another interpretation on this issue basing themselves on the same athâr and by considering those extra rak'ah must be included in tarâwih

Please tell us which mujtahid mutlaq created a new usool,and using that usool changed the number of rakat to other than 20.

I await to see your response.

All 4 madhabs says 20.

Unless you have a mujihad mutlaq or a scholar making taqleed of a mujtahid mutlaq/mujtahid fi'l madhab you are basing your ijtihad on nothing.

The narrations I found regarding this was about Abu Bakr or about Zayd ibn Haritha .
Concerning the first narration, the position of Shaykh Ramadan Al-Bûti is worth of reading.
http://mahdinnm.blogspot.com/2011/01...ancing-in.html
Like you probably known the Shaykh is far from being a salafi but yes he agrees with them on this issue.

This is a side issue,unless you understand the concept of usool/furu and bid'ah in fiqh you will not understand this issue.

First of all, it need to be establish that it was done out of religious happiness.
Even if it's established the salafis will not agree on using it as a daleel for the permissibility of what it is done by some sufis, for many reasons, the first one probably being that there is no narrations regarding the sahabas or the salafs rahimahumullah doing it except in that particular occasion.
As for the issue of hadrah or some sufi dance, again, we can say that the salafis are not alone on this issue and so it's not a frontier line between the salafis and the rest of the sunnis.

You keep saying daleel,why? Can your group make ijtihad between daleel?

Anyways regarding your answer regarding making dhikr while dancing or dancing while saying religious material it has been approved by the sunnah.

First I will quote what the scholars say,then I will post the ahadeeth.

Al-Hafith Ibn Hajr, the great Muhaddith, was asked regarding the ‘raqs’ (dancing) of the Sufis: Is there a premise (asl) for it. Did anyone perform raqsin the presence of the Messenger Salawatullah ‘alayh wa Aalihi wa Sahibih?”

He said: “Yes! Verily Ja’far ibn Abi Taalib Radhiya Allahu ‘Anhu did raqsin the presence of Rasulullah when he told Ja’far ‘You resemble me in my created form and in my character.’ It would have been necessary for the Nabi (alayhis salaam) to clarify whether it was halaal or haraam, yet the Nabi (‘alayhis salaam) did not reject it. This is known in Mustalah Al-Hadith as “Iqraar“, or the acceptance and approval of the Prophet Muhammad. And the Nabi (‘alayhis salaam) would not have remained silent regarding the Haraam (forbidden) or the Makruh (hated).”


This hadith is in musnad ahmad,the Abyssinians were dancing and saying "Muhummadun ‘Abdun Saalihun".


حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏عَبْدُ الصَّمَدِ ‏ ‏قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏حَمَّادٌ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏ثَابِتٍ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَنَسٍ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏كَانَتْ ‏ ‏الْحَبَشَةُ ‏ ‏ يَزْفِنُونَ ‏ ‏بَيْنَ يَدَيْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏وَيَرْقُصُونَ وَيَقُولُونَ ‏ ‏مُحَمَّدٌ ‏ ‏عَبْدٌ صَالِحٌ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏مَا يَقُولُونَ قَالُوا يَقُولُونَ ‏ ‏مُحَمَّدٌ ‏ ‏عَبْدٌ صَالِحٌ

Regarding the insad, Shaykh Shu’ayb Al Arna’ut states in his ta’liq of the Musnad Ahmad, “It is authentic, and all of the men are the two Sahihs except for Hammad ibn Salamah, and he is from the men of Imam Muslim.”

Second narration of same event to corroborate,this hadith is from sahih muslim through Aisha r.a. .


قَالَ ‏ ‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ دَاوُدَ ‏ ‏قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ يَعْنِي ابْنَ أَبِي الزِّنَادِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِيهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏عَائِشَةَ ‏ ‏قَالَتْ ‏وَضَعَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏ذَقْنِي عَلَى مَنْكِبَيْهِ لِأَنْظُرَ إِلَى ‏ ‏ زَفْنِ ‏ ‏الْحَبَشَةِ ‏ ‏حَتَّى كُنْتُ الَّتِي مَلِلْتُ فَانْصَرَفْتُ عَنْهُم

number 1483 of the Sahih of Imam Muslim

Ibn Hajr Al-Haytami stated in his Fatawaa Hadithiyya,

“It is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of dhikr (remembrance of Allah (SWT)) and Samaa’ (audition) according to a number of great scholars including Shaykh-ul-Islaam Al-’Izz ibn Abdus-Salaam.”

What was this reason ? Could you elaborate on this?

Please refer to post where I quoted Imam al ghazali raheemullah.

Obviously we doesn't meand the same thing when we use the word "kalâm", you seem (and correct me if I'm wrong) to class in kalâm every works related to 'aqidah, different religions and sects and refuting them while by "kalâm", I mean what was done by later scholar like Al-Ash'ari, Al-Maturidi, Al-Ghazali etc rahimahumullah which was the use of the same methods used by other firqa and making some ta'wil of some verses which was not done by the salafs or the companions .
And to be clear, I'm not saying the companions or the salafs made no ta'wil at all and I'm neither saying that what the mutakallimun have done is wrong or that they've gone astray.

If you think the theologians from Ahlus sunnah are wrong,then I don't know how to help you.

They used kalam to defeat the heretics,just like the companions did with the khawarij,same thing with abu hanifa raheemullah.

Read fiqh al akbar,he uses it extensively.

Unless you think Abu hanifa r.a. is misguided like many of your friends.

[baytul-herz]

I showed you a sahih hadith in which companions of the messenger of Allah were dancing and praising Muhammad SAW.


Is this not religious material?

[AimeSi]

Bismillah.
Please show us which scholar said his aqeeda is correct.
Anyone who believes Allah SWT has literal fingers,feet,shin,etc,is not from ahlus sunnah.
Anyone who believes that Allah SWT is in a literal direction is not from ahlus sunnah.

I know it's a heavy disputed issue, brother junfrared have already quote some of them in another thread, just an example :
Check for example what is written in this :
http://www.deoband.org/2010/04/hadit...utes-of-allah/
"There is a third path which a group of the predecessors took, and al-Hafiz al-Dhahabi, ‘Allamah Ibn Taymiyyah and his student Ibn al-Qayyim (Allah Most High have mercy on them) preferred, and it is that the intended meaning of “finger” is its literal sense (ma’naha l-haqiqiyyah) but it is an attribute of Allah (Most High), is not a limb and is not like the fingers of creation, rather its kayfiyya (modality) is unknown.[...]
All four paths are conceivable (muhtamilah)." Mufti Taqi Usmani hafizahullah

Please tell us which mujtahid mutlaq created a new usool,and using that usool changed the number of rakat to other than 20.
I await to see your response.
All 4 madhabs says 20.
Unless you have a mujihad mutlaq or a scholar making taqleed of a mujtahid mutlaq/mujtahid fi'l madhab you are basing your ijtihad on nothing.

It's not my ijtihad at all. If it was so, I would do 8 rak'ats but it's not the case.
Allama Ibn Taymiyya is considered as such mujtahid fi'l madhdhab by many hanâbila. Of course, if you consider him to be a non-reliable source of islamic knowledge I understand that you don't consider his view and I'm not here to change your mind.

You keep saying daleel,why? Can your group make ijtihad between daleel?

First of all, it may not be obvious but NO, definitively no I don't belong to any group ! And be sure of that, I'm not a salafi nor a ahle-hadith or a ghayr-mutamadhdhib or ghayy-muqallid, but if you want to think otherwise how can I forbid you ?
I'm not a mujtahid neither, but I like to know the daleel on which a verdict is given. Is this forbidden to ask about it ?

Anyways regarding your answer regarding making dhikr while dancing or dancing while saying religious material it has been approved by the sunnah.
First I will quote what the scholars say,then I will post the ahadeeth.
Al-Hafith Ibn Hajr, the great Muhaddith, was asked regarding the ‘raqs’ (dancing) of the Sufis: Is there a premise (asl) for it. Did anyone perform raqsin the presence of the Messenger Salawatullah ‘alayh wa Aalihi wa Sahibih?”
He said: “Yes! Verily Ja’far ibn Abi Taalib Radhiya Allahu ‘Anhu did raqsin the presence of Rasulullah when he told Ja’far ‘You resemble me in my created form and in my character.’ It would have been necessary for the Nabi (alayhis salaam) to clarify whether it was halaal or haraam, yet the Nabi (‘alayhis salaam) did not reject it. This is known in Mustalah Al-Hadith as “Iqraar“, or the acceptance and approval of the Prophet Muhammad. And the Nabi (‘alayhis salaam) would not have remained silent regarding the Haraam (forbidden) or the Makruh (hated).”
This hadith is in musnad ahmad,the Abyssinians were dancing and saying "Muhummadun ‘Abdun Saalihun".
حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏عَبْدُ الصَّمَدِ ‏ ‏قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏حَمَّادٌ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏ثَابِتٍ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَنَسٍ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏كَانَتْ ‏ ‏الْحَبَشَةُ ‏ ‏ يَزْفِنُونَ ‏ ‏بَيْنَ يَدَيْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏وَيَرْقُصُونَ وَيَقُولُونَ ‏ ‏مُحَمَّدٌ ‏ ‏عَبْدٌ صَالِحٌ فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏مَا يَقُولُونَ قَالُوا يَقُولُونَ ‏ ‏مُحَمَّدٌ ‏ ‏عَبْدٌ صَالِحٌ
Regarding the insad, Shaykh Shu’ayb Al Arna’ut states in his ta’liq of the Musnad Ahmad, “It is authentic, and all of the men are the two Sahihs except for Hammad ibn Salamah, and he is from the men of Imam Muslim.”
Second narration of same event to corroborate,this hadith is from sahih muslim through Aisha r.a. .
قَالَ ‏ ‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏سُلَيْمَانُ بْنُ دَاوُدَ ‏ ‏قَالَ حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ يَعْنِي ابْنَ أَبِي الزِّنَادِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏هِشَامِ بْنِ عُرْوَةَ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِيهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏عَائِشَةَ ‏ ‏قَالَتْ ‏وَضَعَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏ذَقْنِي عَلَى مَنْكِبَيْهِ لِأَنْظُرَ إِلَى ‏ ‏ زَفْنِ ‏ ‏الْحَبَشَةِ ‏ ‏حَتَّى كُنْتُ الَّتِي مَلِلْتُ فَانْصَرَفْتُ عَنْهُم
number 1483 of the Sahih of Imam Muslim
Ibn Hajr Al-Haytami stated in his Fatawaa Hadithiyya,
“It is permissible to stand and dance during gatherings of dhikr (remembrance of Allah (SWT)) and Samaa’ (audition) according to a number of great scholars including Shaykh-ul-Islaam Al-’Izz ibn Abdus-Salaam.”

for this reminder but other scholars have ruled against this too and so there is no ijma' in this and I acknowledge that first this is not a major issue (except for those who may consider it as a bid'ah) and secondly that there is ikhtilaaf amongst the later scholars on this and thirdly it's not because I've acknowledge the existence of ikhtilaaf that I must change of opinions.
It's a disputed issue which have been discussed on this forum already, anyway, the salafis are not alone (again that was the point of my first answer to you on this thread) on their opposition to some practices which may exist :
From Shaykh Abdul Fattah Abu Ghuddah : http://www.suhaibwebb.com/islam-stud...ah-abu-ghudda/
Or what Shaykh Abdul 'Aziz Ad-Dabbagh have written on the origins of some forms of dhikr : http://mybeliefs.co.uk/2011/01/27/re...-of-the-hadra/

If you think the theologians from Ahlus sunnah are wrong,then I don't know how to help you.
They used kalam to defeat the heretics,just like the companions did with the khawarij,same thing with abu hanifa raheemullah.
Read fiqh al akbar,he uses it extensively.

Hey is my english so bad that you understand the opposite of what I mean ?
I didn't say that the theologians of the Ummah were wrong nor did I deny their works and their efforts.
Read again what I've wrote :

and I'm neither saying that what the mutakallimun have done is wrong or that they've gone astray.

I know that my english is far from being perfect, and correct me if I'm wrong, but does not the word "neither" being used for negations or negative statements ?
And definitively, we don't hear the same meaning when we use the word kalâm, so it's not fruitful to discuss about it.

Unless you think Abu hanifa r.a. is misguided like many of your friends.

How must I deal with that statement ?

[PeaceSeeker]

x

Alhamdulilah I am distancing and have distanced myself from all kinds of cults or groups, sects and innovations, may Allah guide us to the straight path and make us of the pious righteous people and save us from every form of evil innovation in Islam. I have brushed them all to the side and have taken the Qur`an with the Sunnah of Rasul Allah salAllahu`aleihi wa`selim and understanding of the Salafus saliheen as my guide as there is no better way than the way of our noble messenger may the peace and blessings sent by Allah be upon him. I am now taking my fiqh from the Hanbali madhab and am working on accomplishing my first primer text soon insha`Allah.

I kept reading and reading endless quotes and athar from the old Ahlus sunnah of Islam, when I kept reading about Imam Malik ra extremely strict stance against any form of bid`ah it rejuvenated my spirit and I cut all ties from ahlul bid`ah and I am trying hard to stick to the texts and methodology of Ahlus sunnah wa`l jama`h alhamdulilah. Allahu `akbar.

Alhamdulilah, Allahu akbar I can't thank Allah aza`wa jal enough for opening my mind and clarifying these issues.

The best book to read regarding the issues of Ahlus sunnah and the real original muhsineen and zaahids is the modern book called "The Sunnah way of the Sufis" research and explained with commentary by Sheikh Abdul Fattah abu Ghuddah, rahimahullah! It is excellent and clarifies the reality of Ahlus sunnah's approach to tazkiatul nafs, perfecting ibadah and zuhd while destroying and keeping away from any form of bid`ah. Insha`Allah it is a beneficial read for everyone.


I believe the Ahlul Hadeeth of Pakistan are generally known to be too extreme in their approach to fiqh. I advise them to return to the madha`hib wa Allahu alim, may Allah guide them and grant them success in this life and the hereafter. So long as they are upon the correct methodology in their approach then Insha` Allah may Allah reward them and grant them success.