what is democracy?

[AbuFatimah]

"Democracy is the illusion that my wife and I, combined, have twice the political influence of David Rockefeller."
- Butler Shaffer

[Abu Zakir]

"Democracy is the illusion that my wife and I, combined, have twice the political influence of David Rockefeller."
- Butler Shaffer

Good quote, however Democracy is pure fantasy if anyone thinks that voting gives any power to the voter at all. It makes people think they have power in actual fact they are in debt to the banks, taxed and controlled from school to old age. Just keep paying and living the fantasy.

[Abu Zakir]

I'm partial to a bit of cynicism myself but remember most people can afford to be cynics in nice cushy liberal democracies where your human rights are secure, there is a decent legal system that doesn't discriminate and there is a rule of law.

The British government flew people away to be tortured in other countries (this is euphemistically called rendition by the authorities). If the state gives you 'human rights' and you believe it does, it also means they can be revoked by the state. Secular Humanists do not have any absolute beliefs in human rights, they do not hold themselves accountable to a God in a life after death, people in democracies are easily manipulated, their minds and opinions shaped by school and mass media, there is actually very little freedom from state interference. There is more state interference in the life of an individual now in a social democracy than there was in Hitler's Germany. You comparing the dictatorships in the Muslim lands to social democracies is slightly dishonest as it ignores the role played by these same so called democracies in facilitating the dictatorships.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS43cgoQLUE
52 seconds long, there is music.

[abd7861]

I'm partial to a bit of cynicism myself but remember most people can afford to be cynics in nice cushy liberal democracies where your human rights are secure, there is a decent legal system that doesn't discriminate and there is a rule of law.

I find it distasteful that our brothers and sisters across the Ummah rose up and fought for their rights in dictatorships while we complain from our ivory towers in Western style democracies. Sometimes I think we take what we have for granted....

I remember talking to an Egyptian friend who expressed great admiration of how the UK justice system operated, how the government really upheld certain rights and whilst I told him that things are far from perfect even within a democratic system he said something very wise. It is human nature for us to stumble and make mistakes, but he argued that in a democratic system like the UK there is always a chance for accountability. What the brother was saying was that in politics and in the grand scheme of organizing human society according to a set of norms perfection can never be achieved but at least there is a series of checks and balances on power to make sure that a citizens' rights are secure.

In the UK, we have mosques of every sect and every Islamic group and they live all in relative social peace - whereas in Pakistan with the same religion there is sectarian chaos. In parts of the Muslim World where there is progress towards a liberal democratic system that is pro-Islam such as Turkey we have social peace and real economic prosperity. Indonesia and Malaysia also come to mind. In Turkey, Indonesia and Malaysia alhamdullilah there are some very dynamic and progressive Islamic groups and thinkers that are introducing revival and reform within the society.

I guess the idea of a liberal constitutional democracy with checks and balances is a very realist response to the human condition.

Wherein the law of Allah Ta'ala is eviscerated to the nafsaani whims of man!

It is extremely shortsighted nay delusional to cite that due to Islam Pakistan is in sectarian chaos. The last time I checked Pakistan was in the hands of a 'liberal' cabal of pseudo-munaafiqs. If it has changed please enlighten me.

The economic prosperity you mention regarding Turkey is based on riba. Enough condemnation of this is in the Qur'aan:

2: 278-279. O ye who believe! Fear Allah, and give up what remains of your demand for usury, if ye are indeed believers. If ye do it not, Take notice of war from Allah and His Messenger................

[umar_italy]

You clearly have no clue about Pakistani society or the enormous street power the Mullahs have - which is why you can be killed for holding certain religious opinions or forced into exile....

People talking in this way should be flogged in the streets.
Especially if they are deviant Ghamidi-followers as you are.

Shame on you.

[Abu Zakir]

I never claimed perfection - I have no illusions - but if I were to choose to live my live in any country today it would be a country with a functioning constitutional democracy - I don't pretend to have all the answers or believe in building castles in the sky. I find it rich when Muslims living in the UK have these complaints - fair enough it is right to be critical (critical citizenship is a must - to criticise the power of the government) but if you're going to condemn political participation in these countries then go - please go back to the Muslim lands.

Why on earth should I go back to somewhere I was never born? Criticism of so called Democracy is supposed to be the whole point of it, though it is useless when people like you attempt to shut us up by asking us to leave. Why don't you leave because you do no like the presence of people like me. Another great way that democracies keep us under control is by preventing all public criticism of it in any way shape or form, if we do get to express some on forums we have very little impact in comparison to the mass media matrix. I am not asking for perfection, just a decent form of government which does not manipulate and rob the people. And one that does not kill millions abroad through financial and millitary terrorism. Ironic that you admire it.

And your critique of social democracies is very libertarian - this is good but its not ''Islamically ordained''.

It does not need to be Islamically ordained, I converse in the language of politics just so I am understood.

People in theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia can be as easily duped - the human condition is the same everywhere - but democracy is the best option out of some frankly unsavoury options. In a liberal constitutional democracy reform and debate can occur - the judiciary is vigilant in trying to curb the excessive power of the executive.

These are the myths of Democracy. Absolute Power was ordained after the French Revolution...this is the model of the modern State, it can shift into Terror mode in a blink of an eye. Prior to this revolution million man armies conscripted to murder and be killed by the State were unthinkable. The post revolutionary State created Total war and the Absolutist State.

What is your alternative?

Monarchical rule or Personal Rule, where the monarch is in charge and they are responsible to God for their actions.

[umar_italy]

Good luck with this in Italy....and by the way you proved my point why anyone with half a sane mind would not like to live in a Mullahocracy or theocracy or some adolescent utopian quasi-religious fantasy.....

Perhaps you should move to Pakistan inshallah and implement this in Pakistan - you will find alot of like-minded people who behave like vigilantes....

Itay?
Yes, even in "democratic" countries, even many Kuffar understand democracy is wrong, while modernist deviants like you suffering from minority complex wanna import the disease in Muslim lands.

May Allah guide modernist deviants working against the Muslim Ummah, and if no guidance is written for them, may He destroy them, amin

[abd7861]

I never claimed perfection - I have no illusions - but if I were to choose to live my live in any country today it would be a country with a functioning constitutional democracy - I don't pretend to have all the answers or believe in building castles in the sky. I find it rich when Muslims living in the UK have these complaints - fair enough it is right to be critical (critical citizenship is a must - to criticise the power of the government) but if you're going to condemn political participation in these countries then go - please go back to the Muslim lands.

And your critique of social democracies is very libertarian - this is good but its not ''Islamically ordained''.

People in theocracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia can be as easily duped - the human condition is the same everywhere - but democracy is the best option out of some frankly unsavoury options. In a liberal constitutional democracy reform and debate can occur - the judiciary is vigilant in trying to curb the excessive power of the executive. What is your alternative?

You absolutely have no clue regarding these concepts which were propounded by the 'medieval' fuqaha centuries before your liberal constitutional democracies!

Pray, please read the document outlining the power of the judiciary by Ammerul Mumineen Umar . You may be surprised that such a 'medieval (nauthubillah)' person is so advanced that our 'liberal' democracies have just about caught the end of his cloak!

A system that is not ordained by the Shariah will land you in Hell. Allah Ta'ala declares,

4:115 If anyone contends with the Messenger even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him, and follows a path other than that of the believers (The Sahaabah), We shall leave him in the path he has chosen, and land him in Hell,- what an evil refuge!

My brother, you are totally colonised by the supposed superiority of Western thought and ideology.

[AK-1990]

Don't really know where to go with the whole, ''May God curse you because you don't agree with my narrow minded mediaevalism''...But I frankly don't care what you think because Alhamdullilah the Ummah is moving towards democracy inshallah - it is happening already.....

The priorities of the Islamic movements in Egypt, Tunisia, Morrocco and Turkey are truly inspiring and their work is an example to the rest of the Ummah - resisting tyranny and now they are trying to build their countries - mashallah!

Continue dreaming boy! Democracy will be crushed by the army of Khorasan! This is a System of Kufr and is Taghoot! InshAllah Allah will help his Army to demolish this idol of democracy in the years to come!

[abd7861]

There is great ethical wisdom in the classical tradition - but no practical institutional theory about Statecraft. Read Al Ghazali, Al Farabi, and other political philosophers within classical Islam - they all talk about the virtues and ethics of a good leader and in very general terms talk about how a society should be organized. You will not find the separation of powers or any real equivalent of modern constitutional theory in their works. The works of the past should be built on but not adopted literally - and the verse you cited has no relevance to this discussion.

I'm talking about the institutional make up that is present in the liberal constitutional regime - not the underlying ethical and moral principles which are already present in Islamic thought. The best means to give a form to the Islamic ethic is by adopting the democratic system - there is a greater chance for Islam to flourish under a liberal democracy than there is under personal rule, autocracy, tyranny or any other such rubbish.

I'm not choosing democracy as a religion - merely a system for a country to adopt. I can be a Muslim and a democrat at the same time - there is no contradiction - I don't why this type of hopelessly backward thinking still persists from some rabid illiterate Mullahs who clearly haven't woken up in this century when truly articulate scholars such as Shaykh Yusuf al Qaradawi and others have already settled this matter conclusively. Scholars like Shaykh Qaradawi and others particularly from the Azhari school of thought have written a lot in this regard. A lot of sensible scholars have clearly written well on this matter using the Islamic sources to justify democratic rule - alhamdullilah for the wisdom of these true scholars of Islam not the Mullahs who use religion as a stick to beat others and for their own personal gain....

The first statement of yours infers that Rasulullah did not fulfil his mission in establishing the laws of how an Islamic state should be governed. It also infers that Rasulullah did not teach the Sahaabah about Statecraft. This is in total opposition to the statement of the Sahaabah that Rasulullah had taught them comprehensively. It also insults the era of the Khulafaa-e-Rashideen and the monumental works of Statecraft that the Fuqahaa penned. If you are unable to understand this then remember Allah Ta'ala states,

10:100......He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand.

Your second statement that the aayah I quoted has no relevance to the topic is indeed laughable. Read the tafseer and you might be surprised. However, knowing how colonised you are with the concept of democracy and its supposed wonderfulness for the Ummah I doubt you will understand.

20:47............and peace to all who follow guidance!