Divisions

[justwanttolearn]

Hi all,

I'm not really a "new Muslim", just interested in learning a few things, hope it's ok to post here anyway.

My question is regarding how people end up "deciding" to be Sunni, Shiite, Sufi, etc. One of the first things I noticed when I started teaching myself about Islam is how heavily divided it seems to be. The hatred between some Muslim sects (I don't know if "sect" is the right word, sorry if it's wrong) seems to be just as strong as the traditional hatred between Muslims and Jews.

So naturally, my next step was to try and learn what the differences are, how relevant they are in day to day life, and to be honest I got completely lost. There was simply too much information, much of it clearly biased and laced with hatred (everyone seems so sure that their way is right), and I was left feeling utterly confused.

Given that this is a Sunni forum, I'm assuming that the vast majority of people here are Sunni. So how did that happen? Did you just follow your parents? Or is there something about the system of beliefs or social practices that convinced you that this is the "correct" interpretation of Islam? If so, what was it?

Sorry in advance if these are dumb questions, but any ideas would be much appreciated.

[amr123]

If you want a detailed explanation you can watch this lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHkFkknENhk

[AimeSi]

Hi all,

I'm not really a "new Muslim", just interested in learning a few things, hope it's ok to post here anyway.

My question is regarding how people end up "deciding" to be Sunni, Shiite, Sufi, etc. One of the first things I noticed when I started teaching myself about Islam is how heavily divided it seems to be. The hatred between some Muslim sects (I don't know if "sect" is the right word, sorry if it's wrong) seems to be just as strong as the traditional hatred between Muslims and Jews.

So naturally, my next step was to try and learn what the differences are, how relevant they are in day to day life, and to be honest I got completely lost. There was simply too much information, much of it clearly biased and laced with hatred (everyone seems so sure that their way is right), and I was left feeling utterly confused.

Given that this is a Sunni forum, I'm assuming that the vast majority of people here are Sunni. So how did that happen? Did you just follow your parents? Or is there something about the system of beliefs or social practices that convinced you that this is the "correct" interpretation of Islam? If so, what was it?

Sorry in advance if these are dumb questions, but any ideas would be much appreciated.

It's hard to answer your questions, since a lot of us have different stories and come from differents backgrounds. For those who have born from muslim parents (like me), generally (not all the times) we tend to follow firstly what has been taught to us either by our parents either by the teachers we have when we were children.
Generally if someone chose or tend to follow another teachings he got from his parents it's because of one or many of those reasons :
-the teacher he had follow another school of thought than his parents
-the young man have friends from other schools of thought and tend to follow them
-in seeking knowledge, he started to seek it from different scholars, or the scholars he had was from a different school of thought
-in seeking knowledge, he started to learn the differences between the scholars and how they come in
-he got serious doubts about the teachings he had got

For the reverts, it depends a lot about how they come to islam and with which muslims did they take their knowledge and stay with.



In seeking knowledge and try to understand the differences, I have just two advices to give to you :
-make du'ah with Allah to give you guidance and keep you on the right path and to give you death on His way with the kalimah "There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"
-stick to those things on which the sunnis (whether they are salafis or traditionnalists) are unanimous particularly on matters of creed.
-try to learn what is the fundations (usool) in fiqh, why did the early scholars (even the sahabas (r)) have differed, how did they extract rules from the Qur'an and the Sunnah, what was their approach with hadith, how did they reconcile differents hadith which seems contradictory to each others.
-try to learn on which issue it's permissible to have differents opinions and where it's not possible, learn the differences between a thing which is clear cut and another thing which is an issue of ijtihad.
-try to learn since when did the differences on this issue exist (does this differences exist amongst the sahabas(r) ? amongst the salafs (ra) ? amongst the latter scholars(ra) ? amongst the contemporary scholars ?)
-avoid being involved in differences which exists since many centuries (ahl-al-kalâm (asharis/maturidis) vs atharis/salafi approach in 'aqida)
-stay away from the differences which come from the indian subcontinents too (but learn to know the similarities/differences between the differents groups)
-to get a better understanding of the differences and how they come in, learn history (for example, the asharis/maturidis schools begin as an answer to the mutazilites...)

In learning, keep an open mind and keep in view that what you read (or hear frome a scholar) have been written frome someone with a particular backround who lives or was living in a particular context and that he has probably been higly influenced by his teachers or what he have read too.

wAllâhu A'lam.

[justwanttolearn]

In seeking knowledge and try to understand the differences, I have just two advices to give to you :
-make du'ah with Allah to give you guidance and keep you on the right path and to give you death on His way with the kalimah "There is no God except Allah and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"
-stick to those things on which the sunnis (whether they are salafis or traditionnalists) are unanimous particularly on matters of creed.
-try to learn what is the fundations (usool) in fiqh, why did the early scholars (even the sahabas (r)) have differed, how did they extract rules from the Qur'an and the Sunnah, what was their approach with hadith, how did they reconcile differents hadith which seems contradictory to each others.
-try to learn on which issue it's permissible to have differents opinions and where it's not possible, learn the differences between a thing which is clear cut and another thing which is an issue of ijtihad.
-try to learn since when did the differences on this issue exist (does this differences exist amongst the sahabas(r) ? amongst the salafs (ra) ? amongst the latter scholars(ra) ? amongst the contemporary scholars ?)
-avoid being involved in differences which exists since many centuries (ahl-al-kalâm (asharis/maturidis) vs atharis/salafi approach in 'aqida)
-stay away from the differences which come from the indian subcontinents too (but learn to know the similarities/differences between the differents groups)
-to get a better understanding of the differences and how they come in, learn history (for example, the asharis/maturidis schools begin as an answer to the mutazilites...)

In learning, keep an open mind and keep in view that what you read (or hear frome a scholar) have been written frome someone with a particular backround who lives or was living in a particular context and that he has probably been higly influenced by his teachers or what he have read too.

wAllâhu A'lam.

Thanks for this, all seems like great advice. Lots of people keep telling me about the importance of finding a good teacher, how would someone like me know how to find and identify a good teacher? It seems to be easier said than done. The Muslims in the country I currently live in are an ethnic minority and their form of Islam is probably not in line with mainstream interpretations of the religion.

[justwanttolearn]

Bismillah
It is Allah who guides and so when in doubt turn to him for means of guidance and you will see it will manifest.
Please go through this link, formulated to assist new muslims
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...one-help/page2

Thanks for the advice and the link. I guess there are two issues here.

One is that the vast majority of Muslims where I live simply aren't Muslims that I want to learn about the religion from. They smoke, drink, visit brothels - I mean, I'm probably closer to being a "real" Muslim than they are and I'm not even a Muslim. The form of Islam that is practiced here seems to be like a cross between Hinduism and Islam.

The other problem is that even if I were to find a "good teacher", I'm not sure if they would want to teach me. I am sincere in my desire to learn, but I'm also open about the fact that I'm not actively "trying to become a Muslim". It's just something I really want to learn about, come to understand, and hopefully find ways of applying it to my life in the hopes of becoming a better person.

There are lots of things about Islam that I would like to try and follow and accept into my daily life, but at the same time it's quite unlikely that I would ever become a full fledged Muslim.

Would a potential teacher be put off by that? Would they only want to spend their time dealing with someone who is intent on becoming a Muslim?

Sorry for all the questions, and again, thank you for the answers so far, they are much appreciated.

[Acacia]

Hello Juswantolearn:

Your honesty is commendable and I certainly can not speak for teachers or anyone else however, I personally have a concern about the stated goal (and you are not the only person on this forum with such a goal, stated openly and honestly). My concern is that if I was to teach you (and I am in no position to do so, I just use this as an example) and my intention is to seek the pleasure of Allah (SWT) and hope that He guides you to Islam fully and completely; your intention is simply to learn and take from it (and other religions) what you will but not fully submit to the teachings of Islam as Allah (SWT) sets out for us in the Qur'an and through the example of his last prophet, Muhammad . In other words, I would not want to have a part in the realization of this other form of religious practice. That is not to say I wouldn't want to continue to invite you to full submission to Allah (SWT) (to clarify: strictly/solely as set out in the Qur'an and sunnah), but to help you mold a lifestyle that includes parts of Islam and accommodates practices outside of Islam, from other religions... I personally would not feel comfortable with this at all, my heart tells me 'no'.

[justwanttolearn]

Hello Juswantolearn:

Your honesty is commendable and I certainly can not speak for teachers or anyone else however, I personally have a concern about the stated goal (and you are not the only person on this forum with such a goal, stated openly and honestly). My concern is that if I was to teach you (and I am in no position to do so, I just use this as an example) and my intention is to seek the pleasure of Allah (SWT) and hope that He guides you to Islam fully and completely; your intention is simply to learn and take from it (and other religions) what you will but not fully submit to the teachings of Islam as Allah (SWT) sets out for us in the Qur'an and through the example of his last prophet, Muhammad . In other words, I would not want to have a part in the realization of this other form of religious practice. That is not to say I wouldn't want to continue to invite you to full submission to Allah (SWT) (to clarify: strictly/solely as set out in the Qur'an and sunnah), but to help you mold a lifestyle that includes parts of Islam and accommodates practices outside of Islam, from other religions... I personally would not feel comfortable with this at all, my heart tells me 'no'.

Thanks for your honesty. I kind of thought the same thing when I was trying to imagine it from a teacher's perspective.

When I say that I'm unlikely to ever become a "real Muslim", I'm referring very specifically to conflicts with my scientific faith. I was raised as an athiest to have a great deal of faith in modern science, and there are points where it conflicts with religion. My previous mention of research into Buddhism was more anecdotal than anything. I live in a predominantly Buddhist country, so I felt (and still feel) it would be rude of me not to learn about it. In Buddhism there is no God, it's more like a set of guidelines to live by than an actual belief in anything. And again, my problems with it come from issues like reincarnation, which I'm simply not willing to accept as being plausible, let alone factual.

Edited here: Sorry, just realized the thing about Buddhism isn't even in this thread anyway, I must be getting confused. To make what I just wrote make sense, I said somewhere that I have studied Buddhism in the past, not as a Buddhist, but as a foreigner living in a Buddhist nation wanting to be respectful of my hosts..... Sorry for the confusion.

[Acacia]

What comes to my mind right away and I feel I should share it here (as I've struggled in other posts where non-Muslims post) is the story of Nuh (a.s.) and more specifically the lesson and guidance for Muslims not to ask Allah (SWT) of things we have no knowledge of. If you have a translation of the Qur'an, the verses I am thinking about are in chapter 11 (Surah Hud), verses 45-46. Here is a portion of the commentary from Ma'ariful Qur'an on these verses:

Prayer for the disbelieving and the unjust is not permissible
A religious rule of conduct that we learn about here is that one should first find out whether or not the objective for which he is making a prayer is permissible and halal (lawful). It is prohibited to make Du'a (prayer) under doubtful circumstances. Tafsir Ruh al-Ma'ani with reference to al-Baydawi reports that since this verse tells us about the prohibition of Du'a under doubtful circumstances, it is automatically inferred from it that it will be all the more prohibited to pray for anything known to be impermissible and unlawful... Even if the circumstances are doubtful, taking the initiative to make Du'a, without first getting to know the circumstances as they are and the lawfulness of the matter in question, is also not appropriate.

Brotherly relations between believers and disbelievers
2. The second religious ruling that emerges from here is that a believer and a disbeliever may be blood relatives to each other, but when it comes to religious and collective matters, this kinship will have no effect... In religion, everything functionally depends on faith, goodness and the fear of Allah. One who is good in deeds and fears Allah, he is ours. If not like that, he is an alien.

...in worldly matters, demonstrating good social behavior, moral grace, favor and generosity is something different. It is quite permissible to deal even with someone not good with these graces, in fact, it is recommended, and is an act worthy of thawab (reward). Countless instances where the Holy Prophet and his noble Companions have treated non-Muslims with compassion, favor and good grace are sufficient to prove this.

Please recognize that the reason for my referring to the Qur'an and quoting the above commentary has little to do with your belief system and more to do with Islam and the caution we're taught to exercise when praying to Allah (SWT) for others, especially non-believers. I've mentioned this elsewhere that Islam is total submission to the Will of Allah (SWT) which requires a way of life that is solely in line with Qur'an and sunnah. While there is good behaviour towards non-believers in day-to-day affairs, there is no brotherhood. So, if you take Islam as being both communal and private, from these versus it seems clear that you could neither be part of the communal brotherhood, nor would you fulfill the private obligations (covenant) you have with Allah (SWT).... until you submit to the Will of Allah (SWT). To put it another way: in your quest to become better, you could be putting yourself in a much worse position since you are committing yourself to learn Islam (taking on the responsibility) in much more detail but are not willing to accept Islam (there is no 90%, 50%, 10% acceptance, it is 100% total submission). Of course only Allah (SWT) knows what will become of your learning but knowing your intention leaves even less room for people like me to offer prayers for you.

I can never gauge when I've said too much (in that, it is beyond my level of knowledge) so I better stop now... @ my brothers and sisters here, please let me know if I've crossed a line so that I may correct my errors.

[justwanttolearn]

Thanks for your reply Acacia, I appreciate you taking the time to find me that commentary as it seems highly relevant and insightful.

I apologize in advance if this turns into a long post, but I'd like to address a few things point by point:

the lesson and guidance for Muslims not to ask Allah (SWT) of things we have no knowledge of.

Without meaning any disrespect, there is a flaw with this being used in the context of someone who simply doesn't know much about Islam. If I don't know about it, and I can't ask about it, then the only way for me to be a Muslim is to be born as one. That seems a bit harsh.

One who is good in deeds and fears Allah, he is ours. If not like that, he is an alien.

As I said, how may I come to fear Allah (SWT) if I know almost nothing of him, and people are discouraged from teaching me? It seems that I'm doomed from birth.

you could be putting yourself in a much worse position since you are committing yourself to learn Islam (taking on the responsibility) in much more detail but are not willing to accept Islam (there is no 90%, 50%, 10% acceptance, it is 100% total submission). Of course only Allah (SWT) knows what will become of your learning but knowing your intention leaves even less room for people like me to offer prayers for you.

I'm not sure if my words have been taken out of context, or if perhaps I simply used bad wording in the first place, but in either case it seems I have misrepresented myself.

I have never intended to state that I'm "not willing to accept Islam". In theory, I am willing to accept just about anything if I see truth in it, and I see a lot of truth in Islam. However, if someone tells you that they are making a 100% commitment to something they haven't even fully studied, let alone understood, I would posit that the commitment is meaningless. To commit to something I don't understand would be akin to lying in my opinion. Perhaps the Qur'an has something to say about that too?

In any case, when I said that I think it's unlikely that I would ever become a "true Muslim", I was simply talking about fundamental things that I have accepted throughout my life as fact, that are contradicted by the religion. Things like evolution and so on. I didn't mean to imply that I don't accept the possibility that these facts may not be facts at all. I do. I'm just being honest about what my issues would be.

If I read the Qur'an, full understood it, and believed it was fact, then of course by nature of believing it, I would be willing to submit to it. It's just that I can't submit to it without even knowing what it is.

Sorry if that all came across as being overly defensive. It's just that it's a bit of a frustrating position to be in, wanting to learn about something enough to make up my mind about it, but being told I can't learn about it until I've made up my mind already.

[Acacia]

...

Originally Posted by Acacia
the lesson and guidance for Muslims not to ask Allah (SWT) of things we have no knowledge of.

Without meaning any disrespect, there is a flaw with this being used in the context of someone who simply doesn't know much about Islam. If I don't know about it, and I can't ask about it, then the only way for me to be a Muslim is to be born as one. That seems a bit harsh...

I'm sorry I did not communicate this fully. We (Muslims) are advised to exercise caution even when asked by other Muslims for prayers. The issue here is not about inviting (and teaching) non-Muslims about Islam, it is about praying and offering prayers for people who are not Muslim. How does this become relevant? Well, I did indeed misunderstand what you wrote to mean that you were intending to learn about Islam in order to weave in some practices but that you have no intention to become Muslim. Becoming Muslim not only brings you into the fold of brotherhood (where we can offer support through prayers too) but more importantly it brings you in alignment with the covenant taken with Allah (SWT).

As I said, how may I come to fear Allah (SWT) if I know almost nothing of him, and people are discouraged from teaching me? It seems that I'm doomed from birth...

I'm not sure if my words have been taken out of context, or if perhaps I simply used bad wording in the first place, but in either case it seems I have misrepresented myself.

I have never intended to state that I'm "not willing to accept Islam". In theory, I am willing to accept just about anything if I see truth in it, and I see a lot of truth in Islam. However, if someone tells you that they are making a 100% commitment to something they haven't even fully studied, let alone understood, I would posit that the commitment is meaningless. To commit to something I don't understand would be akin to lying in my opinion. Perhaps the Qur'an has something to say about that too?

In any case, when I said that I think it's unlikely that I would ever become a "true Muslim", I was simply talking about fundamental things that I have accepted throughout my life as fact, that are contradicted by the religion. Things like evolution and so on. I didn't mean to imply that I don't accept the possibility that these facts may not be facts at all. I do. I'm just being honest about what my issues would be.

If I read the Qur'an, full understood it, and believed it was fact, then of course by nature of believing it, I would be willing to submit to it. It's just that I can't submit to it without even knowing what it is.

Sorry if that all came across as being overly defensive. It's just that it's a bit of a frustrating position to be in, wanting to learn about something enough to make up my mind about it, but being told I can't learn about it until I've made up my mind already.

Yes, I totally misunderstood your comments and I apologize for for that. I was trying to clarify with my first post but that too failed, sorry. And, you are not coming across as overly defensive at all so no worries there.

I have never intended to state that I'm "not willing to accept Islam". In theory, I am willing to accept just about anything if I see truth in it, and I see a lot of truth in Islam...

I understand now, thanks. This makes a lot of difference from the meaning I took previously. Previously, I misunderstood your will as wanting to take from this and that religion and leave (as in not accept at all - which is different from accepting but finding it difficult to do) those aspects that don't jive with the rest. In other words, I misunderstood you as having already made up your mind about wanting to learn about Islam only to fit certain parts into an invented, personalized religion and that made me concerned.

Now what I understand is this (please correct me if I'm wrong): you want to learn about Islam because you see a lot of truth in Islam but you are worried Muslims will not want to teach you because you presently hold beliefs you grew up with that you feel are fundamentally different from Islamic beliefs. There is nothing wrong with this at all. You have not made up your mind and that did not come across (at least for me) from the previous posts... but now it does - loud and clear.

I would say: don't hesitate, if you see the door of a mosque closed it isn't so that you are kept out - Islam is an open invitation. Just knock on the door and be confident that we are here (not just in mosques and online forums) to help you understand what Islam is all about.

I just read brother Nomadic's reply and see that he has mentioned various avenues through which you can learn. Regardless of your intention, there is nothing wrong with you approaching Muslims for guidance, to learn Islam.