Maturidi

[Jadeed]

The Salafis have taken some of the statements of these two Imaams (Imaam Abul Hasan Ashari and Imaam Abu Mansoor Al Marturidi - Rahimahumallah) and misinterpreted them on the basis of their superficial knowledge. They have thus decreed these two to be out of the pale of Islam (May Allah Ta'ala save us from such evil).

This is completely 100% incorrect and it's quite astounding that such incorrect statements are issued and approved by Muftis.

[Maripat]

Welcome, welcome Maripat, I think it is your very first harsh post in Aqeedah section.

Aqeedah is everybody's business.
There is a reason for that. Salvation depends on this.
Then Deen is easy.
Except that in all times there have been attempts to make it complicated.
Last time when complications in Deen were created then honourable scholars found solutions to over come those stumbling blocks.
Taqleed was one of such solutions.

Coming back to your welcome, am I entering your territory?
I'll give that to you. By the permission of Allah (SWT) I chose a different path to earn my livelihood but any such decision takes something for granted - the people in the business of Deen will do their job right.
Allow me to serve you the notice that you are amongst those who have failed me. Failed me and others like me and many of them are very innocent. Failed by creating one additional division in the ranks of Islam. There are non-Muslims who ask, some times genuinely, some times rhetorically and some times by way of deception: O I want to enter Islam but first tell me which one is correct.

And it certainly has some thing to do with Aqeedah - you discipline, expertize and chosen profession. Unity of Ummah is part of Aqeedah and that is where people like you have hit the beautiful edifice of Islam viciously. I am accusing you of misuse of professional privilege. The way a medical practitioner does not use his privileged information for his personal ends and ditto for any professional man or woman it was expected of you as an insider to the science of Aqeedah to strive with your might to preserve the unity of Ummah. That is unfortunately the sad situation.

1) There is no principle major difference b/w Asha'ari and Maturidi, all are subtle, complex, derivative and in-depth differences, so these term can interchangeably use.

Please do remain steadfast on it. Your hero started a thread asserting the opposite. That is what was on my mind when I made my original response to Abdul1234's OP.

2) Issues of Asha'aris and Maturidis doesn't belong to a layman, even Professional Hindi Ulama don't have right to probe these issues. Only "اخص الخواص" Special of Special Ulama has right to say about these issues (a/c to مہند علی المفند، Muhannad 'Alal Mufnnad)

After your later clarification this staement can legitimately be labeled as deception.

3) The Muslak of Ulama e Deoband [who are firm in knowledge (راسخون فى العلم)] is same as Al-Wasitiyyah i.e. The Muslik of Tafweed of Kayf/Kayfiyyah NOT TAFWEED OF MEANING, it is the Muslak of Companions radi allahu ta'ala anhum ajmaeen and Early Muslims, and it is heavily evident from Quran wa Hadith. Anybody can't deny it without suspending the numerous verse of Quran wa hadith. see What is Aqeedah?

If Al-Wasitiyyah is the creed of Deoband then why did Al-Kashmiri declare that he (RA) will not allow the author (RA) to enter the gates of Dar-ul-Uloom? You are again resorting to a trick and in a scholar of Islam it is detrimental his credibility. It betrays an eagerness to win an argument rather than salvage the truth.

4) In fact those Deobandis who are not firm in knowledge has created lot of confusion, you can read the Harris Hammam's thread "internal conflict" on Forum Islamic Awakening, to see how they have created the mess. e.g. Difference between Maulana Ilyas Ghuman and Central Mosque.

Deobandis, scholars and laymen alike, are most clear headed and simple people that I know of. About others, the one you have joined, promoting and protecting, is a different story altogether. I'll mention only one evidence. It has been less than two yaers since I joined SF. Even in that short span of time there has been a significant development in the ranks of those who have made Deoband a target of their wrath and ire. Now something that is developing just under our nose can not be the truth that was revealed and completed and finalized as a complete blessing 1400 years ago. Now let me mention the development. It is the following. When some one calls someone else a Salafi the former usually get a barge of counter response : Do you know there Salafis and Salafis?

You perhaps will give me more classifications: Salafi A, ... Salafi Z, Ahl-ul-Hadith, Ikhwan, JI.
Everything is too modern to be part of original Islam.

5) Athari Creed is believe in Quran wa Hadith as they are, without distorting, manipulating, tampering, believe in Quran wa Hadith as Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam believe in Quran, as his Companions radi allahu ta'ala anhum ajmaeen believe in verses of Quran wa Hadith, as the students of Sahabah and as their students believe. Atharis keep silent where the Quran wa Hadith are silent.

I am informed.

It is the creedal methodology of Ahle sunnat wa Aljammat, and the preferred methodology of Kibar Ulama e Deoband.

I heard they were and are Ashairah.

Asalam Alikum,

Thank you l love your English.

I suppose I must have wronged you in some way for you to praise me on my face.

Please tell me who our ancestors are, in fact our ancestors are only those peoples who was belong to Ahle sunnat wa aljammat. I have listed some of our ancestors in this post from Hazart Abu Bakar Siddeeq radi allahu ta'ala anh to Allamah Anwar Shah Kashmiri Deobandi ( -1352 H) r.a.

Saw that post. That is what I am calling betrayal.

Allah says:

He said: "O Nuh (Noah)! Surely, he is not of your family; verily, his work is unrighteous, so ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge! 11:46

But when it became clear to him [Ibrahim (Abraham)] that he (his father) is an enemy to Allah, he dissociated himself from him. 9:114.

We alienate and forsake him who disobeys You (Dua Qunoot)

Please understand me I'm not declaring anybody Kafir, but the end of the story is it is our duty to obey the Allah and His Prophet. It is our duty to have faith like faith of Companions radi allahu ta'ala anhum ajmaee,

He says:

Believe as the people (Companions radi allahu ta'ala anhum ajmaee) have believed 2:13

Hazrat Ibraheem (AS) did have the advantage of Wahy. You have to present in clear terms your reason to take a separate path. To me your decision has the flavour of Wasil bin 'Ata getting up in the Majlis of Hazrat Abul Hasan Ash'ari (RA)'s Majlis and declaring that I am separating from you.

Brother I shifting loyalties because of primary level issues, it not secondary level issue, people misleads you by telling Allah will not ask about these thing on judgment day, NO Allah will ask you if you reject (in any sense) a single diacritic of Quran wa Hadith.

The topic of the present thread is about secondary level : Ash'ari-Maturidi-Athari. The amount of cacophony generated by the side to which you have defected is of Fitnah proportions. This is not conducive to the health of Islam.

I hope you notice that, like you, I too am not indulging in any Takfir.

There is two thing:

Have Good Faith/Creed Like compansions = Primary ISLAMIC Issue

Knowing about Ashari/Maturidi issues = Unnecessary, dangours PHILOSOPHICAL issue, ("No probing except by Rasikh-fil-Ilm" was an irony , b/c it is an instruction of an arabic Alim to Deobandi Ulama in Muhannad, ALL Deobandis accept it.)

Picking, choosing, rejecting, selecting from blessed Companions (RA) is the who point of contention. There is no choice to pick and choose once you are in Islam. Allah (SWT) says that enter Islam completely once you have declared faith.

I don't know who calls mutants our ancestors. I have cleared you who are our ancestors. I only know the Salafi Ulama of Arabia, they respect the every muslim, preach the Islam very intelligently. Even the sensable Ahle Hadith of sub-continent has good manners and etiquettes. And I’m not belong to, and not talking about the illiterate, fanatic, and ill-mannered peoples.

I'll give you the hint - it is your hero. And he was calling them mutants in every second post.
And since you are not talking about the illiterate, fanatic, and ill-mannered people then please shun the Ta'aweel completely - kufr has no Ta'aweel.
My Brother please read the Quran:

Verily! The worst of (moving) living creatures with Allah are the deaf and the dumb, those who understand not (i.e. the disbelievers) 8:22

Any Kafir who has been died cannot be declared as Ashraf-ul-Makhlooqaat.

Verily we have been talking about the living also.

Brother Salafi Ulama of Arabia don't believe in abuses, declearing anybody Mutant, and also I don't believe in this however this mutation theory is not apply as you are applying, here the physical mutation is not meant, rather it is meant to be intellectual, creedal, or dogmatic mutation. And it implies that the "Mutants" has changed their DNA (an implication for a primary change of methodology) of faith or Creed, and don't believe as Companions believe. I hope you would understand my English

A question here. People of Indian sub-continent, some of them, to some extent, have inferiority complex vis-a-vis the British. They still do have. Is it possible that similar small portion might has inferiority complex vis-a-vis the Arabs? I am not talking about Arabs having no superiority over Ajam - I do believe each and every authentic Hadith. I am talking about people's behaviour.

I can't understand your disposition, ....

I completely submit to the Deen of Islam as explained by Ahl-ul-Deoband. Deen is about submission and that is all that is required but even then I absolutely have no surety about my fate. Your disposition, on the other hand, and the disposition of your company is a bit scary to me. My past experience does not aspire confidence about the path taken by you.

Who is Yousuf Khattab, I don't know any Yousuf, I live in Karachi, I only know the Deodandi Ulama (they are my teachers), and Salafi Ulama of Arabia. Well It isn't good manner, respect the Muslims, if they aren't deviants

You can ignore him. My suspicion is that he will be much ahead of either me or you.
But kindly do some such things that I do not be scared of being judged in your company.

Somewhere in thread "internal conflict" on forum Islamic awakening, Sheikh Haris Hammam have parsed his bayan.

Junfrared are you impressionable?

And the issue of article of my Sheikh Mufti Taqi Uthmai,I can tell you a story regarding to this issue. I belong to Karachi, where the Mufti Taqi Uthmani db lives. When I first read about this topic, I sent question (istifta) to his Dar ul ifta (Darul Ulloom Korangi). This was the question: (What is the muslak of early Muslims regarding to Tafwyd, weather Tafwyd ul m'ani (believe in Ambiguity-Mutashbihat theory) or Tafwyd of modality (annulment of theory of Ambiguity), then I state 10 quotations of A'emah e Islam, some indicating Tafwyd of meanings and some Tafwyd of modality, however scholars had interpreted them in the light of Tafwyd of modality):

ہمارے حضرت مولانا اشرف علی تھانوی رحمہ اللہ تلقین فرماتے تھے کہ صحابہ رضوان اللہ تعالیٰ عنہم اجمعین اور سلف کا مسلک عقائد میں اسلم ترین تھا۔ میرا ایک سلفی المسلک آدمی سے مذاکرہ ہوا تو اس کو میں نے ذات و صفات کے بارے میں سلف کی منہج پر ایمان رکھنے کی دعوت دی اس نے کہا کہ سلف کے یہاں تفویض الكيف ہوتی تھی ناکہ تفویض المعنی ۔میں نے جب اردو کتابیں دیکھیں تو بات الجھ گئی۔ اردو میں برصغیر کے ایک فرقہ اہل حدیث نے اس پر بہت لکھا ہے مگر ان کی کتابوں پر اعتماد نہیں کیا جا سکتا کیونکہ ہمیں تحقیق سے معلوم ہے کہ یہ لوگ کتمان علم کرتے ہیں اور دھوکہ دیتے ہیں۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔۔


Then they (Mufti Taqi Uthmani db's Darul ifta) answered that muslak of Early Muslims in is Tafwyd of modality.

This is also the muslak of Al Imam Abu ‘l-Hasanat Muhammad ‘Abd al-Hayy Lakhnawi Deobandi r.a., he is from one of the Kibar Ullama -e-Deoband, the Mufti Taqi Uthmani db is the student of student of student of........................ him.

This is also the preferred muslak of Great Sufi and Scholar, Hazrat Ashraf Ali Thanvi Deobandi r.a., he is also from one of the Kibar Ullama -e- Deoband, and Shaikh ul Shaikh of Mufti Taqi Uthmani in several disciplines.

Please don’t confuse about my identity. I’m deobandi, I following Mufti Taqi Uthmani db in Fiqh, who generally follow the Hanafi Mazhab. In Aqid I follow the methodology the A’emah Arbah , and other A’emah-e-Matboeen, esp. Imam Abu Hanifah r.a., other Early Muslims and Imam Abu Hasan etc. In other words believe in as it is. It also called Athari Creed.

And I am in disagreement in Aqid with my beloved Shaikh Mufti Taqi Uthmani db, because he is in disagreement with Imam Abu Hanifah r.a. et al. and with his own Shuyookh i.e. Allamah Lakhnawi r.a. and Thanvi r.a., and Allamah Kashmiri r.a.

I don’t follow the Imam Abu Mansoor Tauridi r.a.

And nonetheless we believe Imam Abu Mansoor Maturidi r.a., other Great Maturidi and Great Ash’aris did INAPPROPRIATE THINGS due to influence of Philosophy, we pray for them, may Allah forgive them, obviate from them every objection, admit them into the Abode of Bliss, because we think their INTENSION IS GOOD, and their CASUE IS RIGHT.

This is the opinion of Great Salafi Ullama, e.g. Shaikh Muhammad bin Saleh Al-Uthaymeen r.a. (he was one of the member of Permanent Committee for Fataw), Dr. Abdullah ‘Azzam r.a. (he was the Shaikh of Osama Bin Laden), perhaps Dr. Safar Al-Hawali (he is also the Shaikh of Osama bin Laden)

Get me interested in it akhi.
I pay few rupees and I get my daily does of milk. I leave the rest of the previous steps of milk to the milkman and the like.
I pay zero money and I get my Deen from the scholars.
Please make your presentation of Deen attractive to me.
You shall receive the same respect from me as I give other scholars.
Few of them a even my juniors but I do respect them - and they know it.

Why did you fall in this trap that you can not handle if there is a minor problem in technical matters? Sorry you are not adopting the right approach. I assure you that your approach is bad even in secular affairs. I am telling this from personal experience. This was one conundrum, out of countless others, that I could not solve in my professional life. People are human and they do commit mistakes and others, like me and you, do notice them. How to tackle the situation that is one very fine and subtle aspect of life. for that - it is the privilege of a Muslim that he is privy to that secret.

I'll say more on that but after your reaction, IA.

Wassalam.