Tahreef in the quran

[zahed73]

You have to put yourself in jail to get out of prison.

I pray Allah give you peace and the truth . Your sentence makes more then one meaning.

You have an obvious attitude . What would be more courageous is if you can question your own pre conceptions.

Would you be willing to go through your own beliefs and examining them with us in a truthful manner with your
prejudices at check ?

Often times hate brings you to goodness , as it did to many Muslim reverts.

[Rasta Rebecca]

Would you be willing to go through your own beliefs and examining them with us in a truthful manner with your
prejudices at check?

Absolutely. Shall we start a new thread somewhere?

[zahed73]

Absolutely. Shall we start a new thread somewhere?

Please do if you wish. Please also note understanding Islam is like a marathon not a sprint .
We are not so eager to debate as our intention is your own well being .
So prepare to take it slow . Think of it as a project of yours on SF .

[Rasta Rebecca]

Please do if you wish. Please also note understanding Islam is like a marathon not a sprint .
We are not so eager to debate as our intention is your own well being .
So prepare to take it slow . Think of it as a project of yours on SF .

I started a thread here: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/show...Islam&p=789875.

[Qu'otar]

Please do if you wish. Please also note understanding Islam is like a marathon not a sprint .
We are not so eager to debate as our intention is your own well being .
So prepare to take it slow . Think of it as a project of yours on SF .

Some marathon! I didn't realize you could get disqualified right after the gun goes off. I guess we don't have the right shoes...

[zahed73]

Some marathon! I didn't realize you could get disqualified right after the gun goes off. I guess we don't have the right shoes...

Take some time off.

It was very obvious to everyone what happened. You guys keep on doing this and its not worth anyone's time and effort .
We have other obligations in life and we come here only to make it a productive experience .

Its a shame you were not trying to do the same . It was very thick headed , your approach . Served no objective , even not your own.

[Callisto]

And he does not mind when you mix Islam with Christianity with Hinduism? His head might go into spin, no?

Not at all! We discovered this together after lots of research and exploration and meditation and prayer and discussion...and straight up experience. It has been a long path ahead...years of suffering.

As Ahmed said the other day:

just as a sinner's tears of regret become shields from jahannam

so very true

These 3 main religions all fit together like a perfectly proportioned puzzle box (restricting Hinduism to monotheistic Hinduism, more specifically non-dual, Advaita Vedanta Hinduism). They reinforce each other and the result is 3 infinities of religious thought, not just one. So 3 infinities describe something so much richer, yet at the same time, it is understood that the 3 infinities still do not encompass the holiness of Allah. Allah is infinitely bigger than just these 3 infinities, than any infinity we could possibly conceptualize. If the natural numbers make up aleph-null, and the number of functions between zero and one is aleph-one, and the range of expressiveness of a language is aleph-two and the number of energy levels in a 12 dimensional Calabi-Yau knot is aleph-three, then religious thought is getting up to aleph-four or something. If the combination of religious thought is aleph-5, then for sure Allah is more infinite that aleph-aleph...

So we threw in Amon-Ra to have a fourth leg to hold up our stool. Ergo, the Ptolemic Gate at Karnak. The thinking goes that if Amon-Ra can have 167 different forms, then there must be a transitory "form" of no form. If Amon-Ra can be without form, doesn't that make him the same as Allah, Amon-Ra is Allah, just with a different story she tells in a different way with different concepts?

The integration concept of disparate concepts harmonized together into One, is one that really gets me hot, physically, emotionally, vitally, speechified, mentally, spiritually. My heart is on fire.

[Callisto]

No mind can comprehend consciousness. I am not comparing Allah to consciousness, I am telling you where you can find Allah in your life.

For sure Vedantists accept what I am saying. Most Christians don't like it one bit, but they have so many disparate non-inspired interpretations as to what it means to be Christian, that they have this difficulty. I am shooting about 30% with Muslims, but those 30% are such good people, open to new understanding.

It is the heavily indoctrinated, who think the Sunni interpretation of Islam, from Al-Azhar or worse, (or some of those Shia, like the Hezbollah guy in Haret Hreik I spoke too) is the correct view that have the most problems with it. The funny thing is that since the Schism, none have been inspired from God, since Muhammad is the last prophet, yet they think that their view of the Qur'an is the correct one. Then you get into confusion, where a man will say that the ahadeeth are not tahreef. But you should expect the appropriate objections when I raise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_..._pond_of_Khumm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith_of_position.

Nobody has a fricken clue and seem to think that prayer 5 times a day is sufficient to do that job. Some days I pray 3 times and some days I pray 15 times. Who is counting? Allah for sure. But does it make me a bad Muslim that I live my life by those divine principles, as best I can, yet I don't pray 5 times a day? Which is the more important? A man who does NOT live his life by divine principles, yet prays 5 times a day, is he a good Muslim? Such confusion!

You see, all monotheistic religions have two parts:

• an inner core of divine principles
• an outer wrapper of rites and rituals.

The inner core of all religions is the same. All are One. It is the wrappers that are different, yet this seems sufficient for a man to say "you are not one of us, I shall kill you". Somehow this man justifies murder in the name of God. This man may be a believer, but is certainly going to hell for his actions. This is why I always liked Luke 9:49-50. It is tolerant.

People will adopt the inner core of Islam and all will become Muslim in this way...but they will also be Christian and Hindu at the same time.

The Qur'an says the Bible is true. The Bible say Christ said that without a belief in Christ you won't reach salvation. The Qur'an says all will become Muslim. How can this be resolved? The Muslim accepts that he is already a Christian, and invites Christ into his heart, and the Christian says: "Muhammad was the last prophet of Allah". Bingo!

Instead of divisiveness, why aren't we promoting tolerance? Because some bright bulbs won't accept that there are good people and bad people in every group. It is easier to identify with a group against all other groups, than it is to say I like you folks within "my" group but not you others - you don't act with me based of good principles. And the same is true for people in other groups. This man could look into other groups and find good people, alongside the bad people. Instead of reaching out to these other good people, and making them brothers and sisters, because they act according to divine principles, this man curses them and tells them they are wrong unless you join my group. Do you think Allah approves of this?

[Callisto]

The Father, the Mother and the Son are not three separately incarnated beings. All three are spiritual constructs, or projections or manifestations, of the divine (Allah), not incarnations. Talk about the Father and the Mother are not talking about your physical Father and Mother, but your spiritual Father and Mother.

The Son is within each of us, as is the Father and the Mother. By accepting and inviting Christ and Mary into your heart, you are starting the initial rungs of a spiritual ladder. This ladder leads to Allah. The ladder is of your own consciousness.

All religions are true, as long as they are monotheistic.

1. There is only One God, Allah.
2. God is consciousness.
3. God is within each of us.
4. We are each God, potentially.
5. Issa realized that he is God.
6. Krishna realized he is God.
7. Horus realized he is God.
8. Yet, Issa, Krishna and Horus are separate incarnations.
9. How can three separate incarnations all be the One God?
10. Our collective consciousness is the One God.
11. kolu wahad.
12. maKhsufmouHy’yaBa.

These statements do not violate anything in the Qur'an.

[Callisto]

I figured I had it wrong, due to the item on hadith changing its meaning, in my understanding. It ought to be changed to the "principles of the hadith" and change the order to fundamentally incorporate other views.

1. ijma: consensus, of representatives of all the traditions involved
2. qiyas: analogical reasoning and analogy
3. the Qur'an
4. principles of the hadith: principles underlying the the authentic narrations of the Prophet, not the literal consequences.
5. ‘urf: local custom which is not in direct conflict with established Islamic principles

The thing is that #3 and #4 are the primary sources of the knowledge of Muslims, while #5 incorporates local views. So #3, #4, and #5 are listed below ijma and qiyas, but they are the sources of understanding that people bring to bear on #1 and #2, so in that sense it is circular and the primary sources of principles for Muslims is the Qur'an and the principles of the hadiths.

I guess where I am headed is that there are really two lists in that one list.
One sublist is the ways in which those principles get applied, and I will add the majority vote of a jury as one more use:

ijma

qiyas

jury finding

while the other sublists are the source of principles, which for a Muslim is:

the Qur'an

principles of the hadith

other revealed books

‘urf

and a Christian is:

the New Testament

church principles

other revealed books

‘urf

other revealed books include all Scripture, including the Qur'an, the OT, the NT, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hammadi library, the Upanishads.