What is Shirk? Its much worse than you think.

[AbdurRaheem2]

this may be of interest. it is on the development of religions and ancient monotheism. rather than looking at the shirk of the non-Muslims it looks at things from the opposite direction, noting the traces of tawheed and true religion amongst several cultures that had gone less far down the road of spiritual misguidance.

During the 19th century CE an ignorant man called Edward Tylor (1832-1917 CE) developed a misguided evolutionary view of religion in which it was quite wrongly thought that religion evolved from idolatry into Monotheism, which was in fact diametrically opposed to what often actually happened.

This myth became popular with Darwinian Materialists who spread it far and wide, but as well as being contrary to Divine teachings it is also contrary to actual observation of various peoples.

Most people have been indoctrinated with this view through academic study or the mass media, but many educated people past and present have seen it for a modern myth.

One of these was the anthropologist Wilhelm Schmidt (1868-1954 CE), unlike Tylor he had actually researched traditional religions all over the world.

When he visited the cultures thought to be the most ancient or primitive he found that in their histories Monotheism actually came first and that any developments into idolatry had in fact come later.

Wilhelm Schmidt published his clear findings in his massive study The Origin of the Concept of God, which showed the evidence that he had seen (over 4000 pages) from all continents proving that Monotheism was in fact humanities oldest form of religion.

Amongst his findings he noted that Schmidt identified that primordial hunter-gathering societies were linked to Monotheism, whilst more complex agricultural tribal cultures developed Paganism, but pastoral tribes who followed their herds tended to retain the worship of the (genuine) One God.

He noted that more complex civilizations still (he classed them as Secondary and Tertiary societies) tended towards idolatry and the practice of magic.

The modern researcher, Dr. Wilfried Corduan (a Christian theologian), has pointed out that a religious culture, left without strong guidance tends towards increased ritualism and magic and these developments are what has been mistaken for primal religion by many superficial observers.

Believers in the three Abrahamic faiths may observe that this reality of the pull to superstitious developments away from Monotheism can be seen everywhere and is the direct result of the whispering of Satan and his helpers.

It can be seen amongst the false religious guides, the sectarian cultists and the exaggerated religious innovators amongst the people of the modern world, and many times throughout history.

Dr Corduan identifies the qualities of early religion as being Monotheistic,

- believing in One God and avoiding worshipping spirits or Angels.

- God is described as a ‘He’ not a ‘She’.

- God is seen as the Creator made the world and the universe and isn’t a part of it.

- God is a Superior One; He isn’t human and doesn’t have a human body.

- God is seen as an Everlasting one, who isn’t subject to time like humans and has no beginning or end.

- God is seen as an All-knowing one (who knows even what is in human minds and hearts).

- God is seen as an All-Good one, who is always good and who made moral rules for humans to follow.

- God is seen as an All-powerful one, having complete power.

Christian and Jewish observers may perceive the truth of the above statements, Muslims may furthermore recognize the qualities of primal religion identified by these modern researchers equating to what they call the religion of Fitra (nature).

There are many examples of Monotheism (true religion) being supplanted by polytheism (superstitious idolatry) throughout human history. Some of these are mentioned below…

China was a center of true Monotheism in ancient times. The ancient Chinese people called God ‘Shang Ti’. The researcher Ron Williams has pointed out in his theses paper ‘Early Chinese Monotheism’ that in the primal ancient period the Chinese were clearly Monotheistic and saw God as the Supreme Ruler, as being One and indivisible, being unchanging, having no equal, ruling absolutely and being alone over all in heaven above and in Earth beneath, as being one who does what He wills and whom no power could hinder and who was always right.

The writer Wu, Kuo Cheng recorded in his 1982 CE work The Chinese Heritage that in his opinion there was no question that ancient Chinese people believed in One Almighty God, pointing out that the records, from the earliest times, testify to this.

He noted that they called him Di, “the Lord”, or Shang Ti, “the Lord Above” and how they never endowed their view of God with human attributes or any kind of physical image.

He went on to describe how from all records prior to 2nd century B.C. there was no indication that the Chinese had ever worshiped idols and pointed out that idol worship was in fact introduced to China only after the arrival of Buddhism in the 1st century CE.

Africa was another centre of Monotheism in ancient times and Africa’s Monotheistic history amongst people unaware of the known Divine Revelations is clear but tragically so was the descent of African religions into misguidance.

The great Bantu people who populate much of Central and Southern Africa also show clear signs of their original primal Monotheism although it was overlaid by later diverse developments away from it, however, along with ancestralism similar to that of China the concept of the One Supreme God would remain amongst the many Bantu cultures.

The West African Kikuyu knew of Him under the name of Ngai but held the mistaken belief that He is to distant to be approached apart from when one is in greatest need and the Mende people of Sierra Leone in West Africa believed in One True God who is the great Creator of the universe and called Him Ngweyo.

Also in the West African Yoruba religion the people believed in the One Supreme God and called him Olorius or Olodumare (Lord of the Heavens), yet like many other African cultures the Yoruba later overlaid their primal Monotheism with idolatry.

The Maasai called the One True God Engai and knew that He is the good Creator who punishes the sinners.

The Gedo People of south-central Ethiopia traditionally believed in One God, calling Him Magano and knowing that He is the good Creator of all things, but few Gedo people pray to Magano as over time they started to make sacrifices to the accursed Satan (they call him “Sheit’an”), not out of love but out of a misguided belief that their ties to the One True God aren’t close enough for their prayers to be accepted by him, this belief being their tragic self delusion.

The Zulu people of Southern Africa were portrayed by the British, who nearly lost a war against them (circa 1879 CE) as archetypal savages but in truth they were a cultured, if warlike people. The Christian Missionary J.H. Titcomb (1819-1887 CE) (who recorded that the native people of Madagascar held the concept of the One God) noted that that a former Bishop of Natal who was in contact with the Zulus before the Western Civilization had influenced them recorded that they had no idols and were Monotheists acknowledging One Supreme Being who they knew as the Great One and the All-Mighty.

Thus we know that the Zulus knew of the One True God before they adopted Trinitarian Christianity (and many called called Him Inkoshi Yezulu).

Amongst the pre-Columbian Native Americans of North America the knowledge of the existence of One True God was very real, although false religious ideas were also prevalent.

Generally the peoples of these lands had a concept of God as the ‘Great Spirit’, known variously as Nagi Tanka, Manitou etc, and they were aware that He is the Creator who made the world and the heavens and that He is the Provider.

In particular some such as the Californian Maidu, Wintun and Yuki people (who were indeed primitive hunter-gatherers) had very strong awareness of the One True God as the Creator (and Lord) of the universe.

They were also aware of Satan, the trickster and spreader of evil, yet the primal Monotheism of the Native Americans had also become somewhat overlaid with Shamanism.

It is interesting to note that Pachacuti, a powerful South American Incan King, ruled 1438-1471 CE, returned to natural religion by rejecting the Paganism of his people.

In South America during Pachacuti’s reign the Incas were in their golden age and the Incan ruler was an inspired man who built the amazing mountain top town of Machu Picchu.

When he had come to power the Incas idolized the sun and in line with this Pachacuti built a magnificent solar temple, but he was a man with Fitra and (in events reminiscent of the realizations of Prophet Abraham (may God bless him and give him peace) as a youth) he soon came to see that the Sun was a mere created things, the radiance of which could be obscured by a small cloud, and which was set in a fixed course.

Incan civilization had a faded memory of the One True God who was the all powerful Creator of Creation and they called him Viracocha (and auspiciously his father had once dreamed about Him too), therefore Pachacuti became a worshiper of the One God, but he was not confident enough to teach Monotheism to his people straight away in fear of their revolting against him, instead he promoted it only amongst those close to him.

Sadly the growing wisdom of these people would soon be annihilated by the invasion of the Crusading Spanish Conquistadors.

In 1817 CE the Christian Missionary Adoniram Judson arrived amongst the Karen tribal people of the Burmese jungles.

He discovered that they already believed in the One God and they called him ‘Y’wa’, they knew that God was eternal, that He formed the world, and they had a slightly garbled memory of Adam and Eve (May God bless them) and the fall from paradise through the forbidden fruit (which they called the fruit of trial) and also of the great flood.

They believed that people needed to repent from sins for Y’wa to forgive them and had other beliefs conforming to true religion. The Karens had always refused to accept the idolatry of the Buddhist missionaries and they had a vague memory of the existence of a Book from God.

Judson was able to convince them that it was his Christian Bible, thus the Karen’s who held long memory of true religion, possibly from the most ancient times, became followers of Trinitarian Christianity rather than of pure the Unitarianism religion that their souls truly sought. It is intersting to note that they would refuse to eat pork.

It is interesting to note that the primitive native peoples of the jungles of the Andaman Islands were themselves noted for their ferociousness and independence, yet some of them were recorded as having a very good understanding of many spiritual matters within their native religions.

The researcher Andrew Lang (1844-1912) described how they believed in One God, who cannot be seen, who is immortal and the Creator, the Knower of what is in the hearts, the One who is angered by lies and wrong actions and who helps those people who are in distress or pain. Furthermore they considered Him the Judge who will one day preside over a great Judgement of the souls.

Lang considered these beliefs to be the islanders primal beliefs from which foreign influence seemed to have been excluded, however, he noted that they had, in addition to such a pure spiritual tradition, various cultural myths that were certainly the opposite.

Wherever we look we may find similar realities, but don’t expect to her about it the on the BBC or through the productions of the academic establishment – they are fully invested in the Materialist philosophy and the popular myths that are used to support it.….

http://abodeofmercy.wordpress.com/ca...nt-monotheism/

[Bigmo]

Not only was human worship very normal in pagan tradition bjt also the sun and other solar objects:

Hinduism

Surya
The Ādityas are one of the principal deities of the Vedic classical Hinduism belonging to Solar class. In the Vedas, numerous hymns are dedicated to Mitra, Varuna, Savitr etc.

Even the Gayatri mantra, which is regarded as one of the most sacred of the Vedic hymns is dedicated to Savitr, one of the principal Ādityas. The Adityas are a group of solar deities, from the Brahmana period numbering twelve. The ritual of sandhyavandanam, performed by Hindus, is an elaborate set of hand gestures and body movements, designed to greet and revere the Sun.

The sun god in Hinduism is an ancient and revered deity. In later Hindu usage, all the Vedic Ādityas lost identity and metamorphosed into one composite deity, Surya, the Sun. The attributes of all other Ādityas merged into that of Surya and the names of all other Ādityas became synonymous with, or epithets of, Surya.

The Ramayana has Rama as a descendant of the Surya, thus belonging to the Suryavansha or the clan of the Sun. The Mahabharata describes one of its warrior heroes, Karna, as being the son of the Pandava mother Kunti and Surya.

The sun god is said to be married to the goddess Ranaadeh, also known as Sanjnya. She is depicted in dual form, being both sunlight and shadow, personified. The goddess is revered in Gujarat and Rajasthan.

The charioteer of Surya is Aruna, who is also personified as the redness that accompanies the sunlight in dawn and dusk. The sun god is driven by a seven-horsed Chariot depicting the seven days of the week.

In India, at Konark, in the state of Orissa, a temple is dedicated to Surya. The Konark Sun Temple has been declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site. Surya is the most prominent of the navagrahas or nine celestial objects of the Hindus. Navagrahas can be found in almost all Hindu temples. There are further temples dedicated to Surya, one in Arasavilli, Srikakulam District in AndhraPradesh, one in Gujarat at Modhera and another in Rajasthan. The temple at Arasavilli was constructed in such a way that on the day of Radhasaptami, the sun's rays directly fall on the feet of the Sri Suryanarayana Swami, the deity at the temple.

Chhath (Hindi: छठ, also called Dala Chhath) is an ancient Hindu festival dedicated to Surya, the chief solar deity, unique to Bihar, Jharkhand and the Terai. This major festival is also celebrated in the northeast region of India, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, and parts of Chhattisgarh. Hymns to the sun can be found in the Vedas, the oldest sacred texts of Hinduism. Practiced in different parts of India, the worship of the sun has been described in the Rigveda. There is another festival called Sambha-Dasami, which is celebrated in the state of Orissa (India) for the surya.

The Gurjars (or Gujjars), who belonged to Suryavansha, were Sun-worshipers and are described as devoted to the feet of the sun god Surya. Their copper-plate grants bear an emblem of the Sun and on their seals too, this symbol is depicted.[2]

[edit] Ancient Egypt

Isis, bearing her solar disk and horns nurses her infant, HorusSun worship was exceptionally prevalent in ancient Egyptian religion. The earliest deities associated with the sun are all goddesses: Wadjet, Sekhmet, Hathor, Nut, Bast, Bat, and Menhit. First Hathor, and then Isis, give birth to and nurse Horus and Ra. Hathor the horned-cow is one of the 12 daughters of Ra, gifted with joy and is a wet-nurse to Horus.

The Sun's movement across the sky represents a struggle between the Pharaoh's soul and an avatar of Osiris. Ra travels across the sky in his solar-boat; at dawn he drives away the demon Apep of darkness. The "solarisation" of several local gods (Hnum-Re, Min-Re, Amon-Re) reaches its peak in the period of the fifth dynasty.




Akhet (horizon)
in hieroglyphs

Rituals to the god Amun who became identified with the sun god Ra were often carried out on the top of temple pylons. A Pylon mirrored the hieroglyph for 'horizon' or akhet, which was a depiction of two hills "between which the sun rose and set",[3] associated with recreation and rebirth. On the first Pylon of the temple of Isis at Philae, the pharaoh is shown slaying his enemies in the presence of Isis, Horus and Hathor. In the eighteenth dynasty, Akhenaten changed the polytheistic religion of Egypt to a monotheistic one, Atenism of the solar-disk and is the first recorded state monotheism. All other deities were replaced by the Aten, including Amun-Ra, the reigning sun god of Akhenaten's own region. Unlike other deities, the Aten did not have multiple forms. His only image was a disk—a symbol of the sun.

Soon after Akhenaten's death, worship of the traditional deities was reestablished by the religious leaders (Ay the High-Priest of Amen-Ra, mentor of Tutankhaten/Tutankhamen) who had adopted the Aten during the reign of Akhenaten.

[edit] Chinese mythology

Taiyang Shen, the Chinese solar deity

Statue of the sun goddess Xihe charioteering the sun, being pulled by a dragon, in HangzhouIn Chinese mythology (cosmology), there were originally ten suns in the sky, who were all brothers. They were supposed to emerge one at a time as commanded by the Jade Emperor. They were all very young and loved to fool around. Once they decided to all go into the sky to play, all at once. This made the world too hot for anything to grow. A hero named Hou Yi shot down nine of them with a bow and arrow to save the people of the earth. He is still honored this very day. In another myth, the solar eclipse was caused by the magical dog of heaven biting off a piece of the sun. The referenced event is said to have occurred around 2,160BCE. There was a tradition in China to make lots of loud celebratory sounds during a solar eclipse to scare the sacred "dog" away. The Deity of the Sun in Chinese mythology is Ri Gong Tai Yang Xing Jun (Tai Yang Gong / Grandfather Sun) or Star Lord of the Solar Palace, Lord of the Sun. In some mythologies, Tai Yang Xing Jun is believed to be Hou Yi. Tai Yang Xing Jun is usually depicted with the Star Lord of the Lunar Palace, Lord of the Moon, Yue Gong Tai Yin Xing Jun (Tai Yin Niang Niang / Lady Tai Yin


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_deity


So just like human can be worshiped so can the sun and even moon.



The worship of the serpent is found in many parts of the Old World, and in the Americas.

In India Snake worship refers to the high status of snakes in Hindu mythology. Over a large part of India there are carved representations of cobras (nagas) or stones as substitutes. To these human food and flowers are offered and lights are burned before the shrines. Among the Dravidians a cobra which is accidentally killed is burned like a human being; no one would kill one intentionally. The serpent-god's image is carried in an annual procession by a celibate priestess.

At one time there were many prevalent different renditions of the serpent cult located in India. In Northern India, a masculine version of the serpent named Nagaraja and known as the “king of the serpents” was worshipped. Instead of the “king of the serpents,” actual live snakes were worshipped in South India (Bhattacharyya 1965, p. 1). The Manasa-cult in Bengal, India, however, was dedicated to the anthropomorphic serpent goddess, Manasa (Bhattacharyya 1965, p. 1).

In Africa the chief centre of serpent worship was Dahomey. but the cult of the python seems to have been of exotic origin, dating back to the first quarter of the 17th century. By the conquest of Whydah the Dahomeyans were brought in contact with a people of serpent worshippers, and ended by adopting from them the beliefs which they at first despised. At Whydah, the chief centre, there is a serpent temple, tenanted by some fifty snakes. Every python of the danh-gbi kind must be treated with respect, and death is the penalty for killing one, even by accident. Danh-gbi has numerous wives, who until 1857 took part in a public procession from which the profane crowd was excluded; a python was carried round the town in a hammock, perhaps as a ceremony for the expulsion of evils. The rainbow-god of the Ashanti was also conceived to have the form of a snake. His messenger was said to be a small variety of boa. but only certain individuals, not the whole species, were sacred. In many parts of Africa the serpent is looked upon as the incarnation of deceased relatives. Among the Amazulu, as among the Betsileo of Madagascar, certain species are assigned as the abode of certain classes. The Maasai, on the other hand, regard each species as the habitat of a particular family of the tribe.

The Ancient Egyptians worshiped a number of snake gods, including Apophis and Set, and the Sumerians before them had a serpent god Ningizzida.

In America some of the Native American tribes give reverence to the rattlesnake as grandfather and king of snakes who is able to give fair winds or cause tempest. Among the Hopi of Arizona the serpent figures largely in one of the dances. The rattlesnake was worshipped in the Natchez temple of the sun and the Aztec deity Quetzalcoatl was a feathered serpent-god. In many MesoAmerican cultures, the serpent was regarded as a portal between two worlds. The tribes of Peru are said to have adored great snakes in the pre-Inca days and in Chile the Mapuche made a serpent figure in their deluge beliefs.

Serpent worship was well known in ancient Europe. There does not appear to be much ground for supposing that Aesculapius was a serpent-god in spite of his connection with serpents. On the other hand, we learn from Herodotus of the great serpent which defended the citadel of Athens. The Roman genius loci took the form of a serpent where a snake was kept and fed with milk in the temple of Potrimpos, an old Slavonic god. The ancient Greeks also featured the Gorgons and Medusa in their mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_...on_and_animals




Even animals can be worshiped as gods.

Not one of those pagan traditions, not one, not even one, ever believed in tawheed al ruboobiya. Not even one. Lets start living in the real world and not burry our heads in the sand.

[Jadeed]

Even animals can be worshiped as gods.

Not one of those pagan traditions, not one, not even one, ever believed in tawheed al ruboobiya. Not even one. Lets start living in the real world and not burry our heads in the sand.

The bolded is an interesting assertion. Can you please substantiate that via some method that does not involve quoting from Wikipedia?

SubhanAllah, quoting hadith is 'burying your head in the sand' and quoting wikipedia is a viable way to understand Islamic creed. I'm done. I quit SunniForum forever. I will never, ever again log onto this account or look at this web-page.

[warea]

Mmm. So the later generations believed that those in the dirt were... gods? In a sense that they created and destroyed with 'Kun?'

The narration does not mention that the later generation considered the statues to represent those "in the dirt". So deduction cannot be made from it to answer your question.

When Bani Isra'il said 'Make for us an ilah like they have alihat' to Musa (alayhi salaam), they meant 'Make us something which has the power to create and destroy with 'kun?'

Did they think Musa (alayhi salaam) was a god who could make gods?

Explain the meaning of "ilaah" and how "they" who the followers of Moses(as) wanted to immitate took it as illaah.

And your repeated reference to "kun" with your loaded intention is better tried elsewhere. Your attempt would only imply that you yourself is committing shirk for attributing yourself with "will" just as Allah has "Will". Such crypto based arguments without looking into the difference in meaning, is a fail before it even starts.

What's more, worship can be both outward actions and inward actions, or one or the other. All the jurists agreed: prostrating to the sun is shirk. They did not specify whether it was one or the other kind of prostration, or whether it was with the intention of reverence and worship or not. And they also specified: if someone were to prostrate to the sun with the intention of making himself benefit in this world through the observance of others to this action of his, then it would also be shirk, and this is explicit negation of any internal feeling of worship or reverence.

Your mistaken. What agreement they say is on "kufr" of prostrating to idols or sun or anything tthat is obvious indicator of disbelief. But not shirk which require more than just knowing the outward action.

Your second part is incomprehensible.

And your claim implies angels committed shirk by prostrating to Adam a.s. and in similar vein there are tons of arguments to refute the notion that mere prostration is shirk or worship.

It is also seen in some of the evil sufi orders who claim that the dead people can do tasarruf and help anyone, and that they can create and destroy and kill and restore to life! Their shirk probably didn't start out with that belief.

Isa alaihi salaam must have been like those "evil Sufi" you imagine in your attempt to slander like you understand it all.

003.049*YUSUFALI:*"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird*by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead,*by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

[AbdurRaheem2]

Of course we need to look at pagan traditions to see what shirk is. These are the mushriks so whats the point of talking about shirk if its not relevant to any pagan tradition? Damn!

no cussing please brother

As far as hadiths, these hadiths are talking about how shirk started, perhaps in the Arabian peninsula....

brother that is your assumption

Best the way is to research and I showed that no pagan tradition known to mankind believed in tawheed alruboobiya or whatever they call it.

if they believed in it they would be Hanifs not Pagans

As far as the story of the calf, we can see that veneration of pious men as you say is not a necessary component for shirk.

Muslims do not say that it is, rather we say that that was how it very first started in early humanity

Examples of demigods include the Celtic hero Cuchulain, the Sumerian king Gilgamesh (who supposedly was actually two thirds god), the ancient Germanic woodsman Ansel,and the Greek hero Heracles (Roman Hercules).

can you not see how these are all real human heroes who grew into idols over the generations due to the mythologizing of their story and it being elaborated over the generations?

[AbdurRaheem2]

Not one of those pagan traditions, not one, not even one, ever believed in tawheed al ruboobiya. Not even one. Lets start living in the real world and not burry our heads in the sand.

my brother Allah sent 124,000 Prophets to humanity.

He sent Prophets to every people at one time or other.

Every single Pagan religion developed over a long period of time out of Islam.

If you have a problem believing that, it is your problem.

If your source for religious knowledge is Wikipedia that too is your problem.

[AbdurRaheem2]

The bolded is an interesting assertion. Can you please substantiate that via some method that does not involve quoting from Wikipedia?

SubhanAllah, quoting hadith is 'burying your head in the sand' and quoting wikipedia is a viable way to understand Islamic creed. I'm done. I quit SunniForum forever. I will never, ever again log onto this account or look at this web-page.

brother do not do that, otherwise enemies of Islam will read this post and just come on here to wind people up until they stop posting and thus they could destroy a source of knowledge.

[warea]

I think AbdurRaheem is misplacing the discussion. Its not doubting the fact that original religion was monotheism and polytheism is a perversion.

The point being made is different as to what constitutes shirk of these perverted religions. All these religions commited partnership in Allah's lordship and divinity itself.

And yes its possible that exaggeration of humans can lead to shirk. But so can shirk be formed by decrease in Allah's Greatness where by anthropomorphic understanding of God emerges until they worship some idol as a representation of that anthropomorphic God. There are theory's of how attributes of one God were latter potrayed as several seperate gods and anthropomorphised into idolatry.

[Bigmo]

I think AbdurRaheem is misplacing the discussion. Its not doubting the fact that original religion was monotheism and polytheism is a perversion.

The point being made is different as to what constitutes shirk of these perverted religions. All these religions commited partnership in Allah's lordship and divinity itself.

And yes its possible that exaggeration of humans can lead to shirk. But so can shirk be formed by decrease in Allah's Greatness where by anthropomorphic understanding of God emerges until they worship some idol as a representation of that anthropomorphic God. There are theory's of how attributes of one God were latter potrayed as several seperate gods and anthropomorphised into idolatry.

"But so can shirk be formed by decrease in Allah's Greatness where by anthropomorphic understanding of God emerges "

Very good point. In fact you hit the nail better than I did. This is exatly what i wanted to say but couldnt find the words.

Shirk is bringing God to human levels and since no single human can function on his own so they brought different gods and just like humans have conflicts and limits so does the gods and just like there is evil and good in every human life so now the gods can be evil and good and just like humans are mortal so the gods can be mortal.

Very good point and professional language.

[AbdurRaheem2]

You are both saying some interesting things.

I like this article from Deoband.org

"The Reality of Shirk, its Manifestations and its Types

Shah Waliullah al-Muhaddith al-Dahlawi

Translated by Zameelur Rahman

The Reality of Shirk is to affirm the special attributes of Allah (Exalted is He) for [those] besides Him, like:

(1) affirming absolute disposal (al-tasarruf al-mutlaq) in the cosmos (kawn) by an absolute will (al-iradah al-mutlaqah), which is expressed as “kun fayakun” (Be! And it is);

(2) or affirming intrinsic knowledge (al-’ilm al-dhati) which has not been obtained through acquisition (iktisab) by means of the senses, rational proof, dreams (manam), inspiration (ilham) and their likes from [both] material and spiritual means;

(3) or affirming [the act of] existentialising (ijad) the healing of a sick person;

(4) or affirming a curse on an individual or displeasure upon him such that the object of this curse becomes penniless, sick or wretched; or [affirming] mercy and satisfaction with an individual, such that he becomes by means of this mercy and pleasure, rich, healthy, fit and happy.

These [pre-Islamic] mushrikun did not recognise a partner (sharik) besides Allah (Exalted is He) in the creation of substances (jawahir), i.e. the foundations of matter, and administration of cosmic affairs. They recognised that none had the power, when Allah (Exalted is He) had established and decreed a thing, to impede or stop Him.

Their association (ishrak) was only in specific matters with [respect to] some servants [of Allah], since they believed that just as a great sultan from amongst the great sultans dispatches his servant and his close companions to one of the corners of his kingdom to take charge of one of the particular affairs and he makes them freely-dispose (mutasarrifin) therein by their choice and authority until another decision issues from him, and he does not take charge of the affairs of [his] subjects and their particular affairs himself, rather he delegates this to his authorities (wulat) and rulers (hukkam) and he accepts from them their intercession and their commendation of the employees that are working under their watch and those connected to them and those close to them, similarly the Absolute King of Kings (Exalted is His Eminence) has indeed conferred the robe of divinity to some of His close servants, and He made their displeasure and pleasure effective for His other servants.

As a result of this, they would believe it necessary to come close to these servants that were brought close [to Allah], until this became a means of the validity of being accepted in the presence of the True King; and [they believed] their intercession with respect to them would obtain privilege and acceptance from Him (Glorified is He) when deeds are recompensed and accounted.

Considering this perception and conception which was firmly-rooted in their minds, their minds incited them to prostrate before them and slaughter on their behalf, and take oaths upon their names and seek help (isti’anah)[1] by their absolute power, and carve their images and their statues from stone, brass, copper etc. and make them a Qiblah (direction of worship) in order to turn to their spirits; and the ignorant gradually advanced in this manner until they began to worship these images and statues and believed them to be gods (alihah) themselves, and confusion, doubt and great corruption occurred in their beliefs.[2]

(Al-Fawz al-Kabir fi Usul al-Tafsir, translated into Arabic by Salman al-Husayni al-Nadwi, pp. 23-25, Dar al-Basha’ir al-Islamiyyah, Third Edition)
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Shah Waliullah Dahlawi wrote on this issue: “All who go to the land of Ajmer or to the grave of Salar Mas’ud or those that resemble them in order to request [to fulfil] a need, it is indeed a sin more grievous than murder and adultery. Its likeness is not but the likeness of those who worship the creation or like those who call on Al-Lat and Al-’Uzza. However, we do not [unequivocally] declare disbelief [upon them] due to the absence of a text from the Lawgiver in this specific matter. All who assign life to the dead and request their needs from them, ‘his heart is surely sinful’ (Qur’an, 2:283), and [this act] is included in His statement (Exalted is He), ‘that is iniquity’ (Qur’an, 5:3).” (Al-Tafhimat al-Ilahiyyah, 2:45)

In the same work, he writes: “The definition of associating (shirk) [partners] with Allah (Glorified is He) in worship is glorifying (ta’zim) other than Allah, intending thereby to come closer to Allah (Exalted is He) and salvation in the Final Abode. One of the greatest diseases in this age of ours is their worship of their shuyukh when [they are] alive or [worship] of their graves when [they are] dead. The ignorant [Muslims] imitate the disbelievers of India [i.e. Hindus] in worshipping their idols [which is] amongst their [ritual] acts. The definition of associating [partners] with Allah in seeking help (isti’anah) is to seek one’s need from another while believing he has the power to accomplish it by applying [his] powerful will (sarf al-iradah al-nafidhah), like curing the sick, giving life and death, giving provision and creating a child, and other things that are contained in the Names of Allah (Exalted is He). The definition of associating [partners] with Allah in supplication (du’a) is to mention other than Allah (Glorified is He) while believing this action of his will benefit him in his afterlife or in coming closer to Allah, just as they mention their shuyukh when waking up in the morning.” (Al-Tafhimat al-Ilahiyyah, 2:64)

He also discusses isti’anah in relation to shirk in his masterpiece, Hujjat Allah al-Balighah: “This concept [i.e. shirk] has various embodiments and forms, and the divine law only discusses embodiments and forms of it which the people practice with the intention of shrik, so that they become anticipated sources (mazinnah) of shirk and customarily inseparable from it. This is similar to the practice of the divine law in establishing the causes that entail good or evil actions as being tantamount to those acts themselves. We want to alert you to those things which God, may He be Exalted, has made anticipated sources (mazinnat) of shirk in the divine law brought by Muhammad, may there be peace and blessings upon the one who brought it, so that he forbade them…2) Among them is that they used to request assistance (yasta’inuna) with their needs (fi hawa’ijihim) such as in curing the sick and meeting the needs of the poor, from other than God.

They would make vows to them expecting the accomplishment of their purposes through these vows, and they would recite their names, hoping for their blessing. Therefore, God, may He be Exalted, made incumbent upon them that they say during their prayers: ‘Thee alone do we worship, Thee alone do we seek for help’ (Qur’an, 1:4). And He said, may He be Exalted, ‘Call upon no one except God’ (Qur’an, 72:18). The meaning of ‘calling upon’ is not worship as certain of the interpreters of the Qur’an said, it rather means ‘seeking help’ (isti’anah) according to the saying of God, may He be Exalted, ‘No, but you call upon Him and He removes the thing because of which you call upon Him’ (Qur’an, 6:41).” (The Conclusive Argument of God: Shah Wali Allah of Delhi’s Hujjat Allah al-Balighah, Trans. Marcia K. Hermansen, p.184-6)

After explaining further the condition of the mushrikun, Shah Waliullah compares them with some Muslims of his time. He writes: “If you, dear reader, are hesitant in accepting the accuracy of what was said about the beliefs of the mushrikin and their deeds, look at the superstitious distorters of this age, especially those of them who reside in the borders of the Abode of Islam [i.e. India], what their conceptions of “sainthood” (wilayah) are; for, despite recognising the sainthood of the early saints, they believe the existence of saints in this age is impossible, and they attend the graves and holy places [of the early saints] and are afflicted by all kinds of shirk, bid’ahs and superstitions; and distortion (tahrif) and assimilation (tashbih) have taken root in them and penetrated into their minds until no tribulation amongst the tribulations and no trial amongst the trials contained in the judgement that has come in the authentic hadith, ‘You will surely follow the ways of those who went before you…’ remained but a group from amongst the groups that are Muslims by name plunged into it and became attached to it. Allah (Glorified is He) save us from that.” (Al-Fawz al-Kabir, p.26)

He wrote elsewhere: “Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, ‘You will surely follow the ways of those who went before you, hand span for hand span, arm’s length for arm’s length, until if they were to enter the hole of a lizard, you would follow them.’ We said, ‘O Messenger of Allah! The Jews and Christians?’ He said, ‘Then who?’ Al-Bukhari and Muslim transmitted it. Allah’s Messenger (Allah bless him and grant him peace) spoke the truth for indeed we have seen men amongst the feeble of the Muslims taking the pious as lords besides Allah and adopting their graves as mosques just as the Jews and Christians would do.” (Al-Tafhimat al-Ilahiyyah, 2:134-5)"

http://www.deoband.org/2010/09/aqida...and-its-types/