What is Shirk? Its much worse than you think.

[AbdurRaheem2]

I think you would like al-Biruni (ra), 1000 years ago he studied many religions in a rational and scientific way and wrote books on them. His knowledge was part of a booming Islamic tradition of science and research during the era.

Al-Bīrūnī is one of the most important Muslim authorities on the history of religion.[31] Al-Biruni was a pioneer in the study of comparative religion.

He studied Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and other religions.

He treated religions objectively, striving to understand them on their own terms rather than trying to prove them wrong. His underlying concept was that all cultures are at least distant relatives of all other cultures because they are all human constructs.

“What al-Biruni seems to be arguing is that there is a common human element in every culture that makes all cultures distant relatives, however foreign they might seem to one another.” (Rosenthal, 1976, p. 10).

Al-Biruni was disgusted by scholars who failed to engage primary sources in their treatment of Hindu religion. He found existing sources on Hinduism to be both insufficient and dishonest. Guided by a sense of ethics and a desire to learn, he sought to explain the religious behavior of different groups.

Al-Biruni divides Hindus into an educated and an uneducated class. He describes the educated as monotheistic, believing that God is one, eternal, and omnipotent and eschewing all forms of idol worship.

He recognizes that uneducated Hindus worshipped a multiplicity of idols yet points out that even some Muslims (such as the Jabiriyya) have adopted anthropomorphic concepts of God. (Ataman, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%A...r%C5%ABn%C4%AB

Also you may find this article on the interaction between Hindus and Muslims in the many centuries there has been a Muslim presence in India. As you will see things are far more complicated than it seems you have assumed and there has been a broad interaction between Muslims and Hindus leading to various Muslim assessments of their religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E...amic_relations

Some other interesting learned Muslims who have studied non-Muslim religions deeply include Zakir Naik, Ali Unal, Al biruni, Abdul Haq Vidyarthi, Azad Rasool, Amir Khusro, but these are a few of many.

[warea]

The only Quranic evidence I have seen presented by those who tell us that pagans believed God is the sole creator and sustainer are these:


﴿مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلاَّ لِيُقَرِّبُونَآ إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى﴾

(We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allah) ﴿39:3﴾. So Allah says:

﴿قُل لِّمَنِ الاٌّرْضُ وَمَن فِيهَآ﴾

(Say: "Whose is the earth and whosoever is therein'') meaning, "Who is the Owner Who has created it and whatever is in it of animals, plants, fruits and all other kinds of creation''

﴿إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَسَيَقُولُونَ لِلَّهِ﴾

("If you know!'' They will say: "It is Allah's!'') means, they will admit that this belongs to Allah Alone with no partner or associate. If that is the case,

﴿قُلْ أَفَلاَ تَذَكَّرُونَ﴾

(Say: "Will you not then remember'') that none should be worshipped except the Creator and Provider.

﴿قُلْ مَن رَّبُّ السَّمَـوَتِ السَّبْعِ وَرَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْعَظِيمِ ﴾

(Say: "Who is Lord of the seven heavens, and Lord of the Great Throne'') means, "Who is the Creator of the higher realm with its planets, lights and angels who submit to Him in all regions and in all directions Who is the Lord of the Great Throne, which is the highest of all created things'' Allah says here:

﴿وَرَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْعَظِيمِ﴾

(and Lord of the Great Throne), meaning the Mighty Throne. At the end of the Surah, Allah says:

﴿رَبُّ الْعَرْشِ الْكَرِيمِ﴾

(the Lord of the Supreme Throne!) ﴿23:116﴾, meaning splendid and magnificent. The Throne combines the features of height and vastness with splendor and magnificence. This is why it was said that it is made of red rubies. Ibn Mas`ud said, "There is no night or day with your Lord, and the light of the Throne is from the Light of His Face.''

﴿سَيَقُولُونَ لِلَّهِ قُلْ أَفَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ ﴾

(They will say: "Allah.'' Say: "Will you not then have Taqwa'') meaning, since you admit that He is the Lord of the heavens and the Lord of the Mighty Throne, will you not fear His punishment for worshipping others besides Him and associating others with Him

﴿قُلْ مَن بِيَدِهِ مَلَكُوتُ كُلِّ شَىْءٍ﴾

(Say: "In Whose Hand is the sovereignty of everything'') i.e., sovereignty is in His Hands.

﴿مَّا مِن دَآبَّةٍ إِلاَّ هُوَ ءاخِذٌ بِنَاصِيَتِهَآ﴾

(There is not a moving creature but He has grasp of its forelock) ﴿11:56﴾. meaning, He has control over it. The Messenger of Allah used to say,

«لَا وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِه»

(By the One in Whose hand is my soul.) When he swore an oath, he would say,

«لَا وَمُقَلِّبِ الْقُلُوب»

(By the One Who turns over (controls) the hearts.) He, may He be glorified, is the Creator, the Sovereign, the Controller,

﴿وَهُوَ يُجْيِرُ وَلاَ يُجَارُ عَلَيْهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ﴾

(And He protects (all), while against Whom there is no protector, if you know) Among the Arabs, if a leader announced his protection to a person, no one could go against him in that, yet no one could offer protection against that leader. Allah says:

﴿وَهُوَ يُجْيِرُ وَلاَ يُجَارُ عَلَيْهِ﴾

(And He protects (all), while against Whom there is no protector, ) meaning, He is the greatest Master, and there is none greater than Him. His is the power to create and to command, and none can overturn or oppose His ruling. What He wills happens, and what He does not, will not happen. Allah says:

﴿لاَ يُسْأَلُ عَمَّا يَفْعَلُ وَهُمْ يُسْـَلُونَ ﴾

(He cannot be questioned about what He does, while they will be questioned.) ﴿21:23﴾ He cannot be asked about what He does because of His greatness, Pride, overwhelming power, wisdom and justice, but all of His creation will be asked about what they did, as Allah says:

﴿فَوَرَبِّكَ لَنَسْـَلَنَّهُمْ أَجْمَعِينَ - عَمَّا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ ﴾

(So, by your Lord, We shall certainly call all of them to account. For all that they used to do.) ﴿15:92-93﴾

﴿سَيَقُولُونَ لِلَّهِ﴾

(They will say: "(All that belongs) to Allah.'') means, they will admit that the Almighty Master Who protects all while against Him there is no protector is Allah Alone, with no partner or associate.

﴿قُلْ فَأَنَّى تُسْحَرُونَ﴾

(Say: "How then are you deceived and turn away from the truth'') means, how can your minds accept the idea of worshipping others besides Him when you recognize and acknowledge that Then Allah says:

﴿بَلْ أَتَيْنَـهُمْ بِالْحَقِّ﴾

(Nay, but We have brought them the truth,) which is the declaration that there is no god worthy of worship besides Allah, and the establishment of clear, definitive and sound proof to that effect,

﴿وَإِنَّهُمْ لَكَـذِبُونَ﴾

(and verily, they are liars.) means, in their worship of others alongside Allah when they have no evidence for doing so, as Allah says at the end of this Surah:

﴿وَمَن يَدْعُ مَعَ اللَّهِ إِلَـهَا ءَاخَرَ لاَ بُرْهَانَ لَهُ بِهِ فَإِنَّمَا حِسَابُهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ إِنَّهُ لاَ يُفْلِحُ الْكَـفِرُونَ ﴾

(And whoever invokes, besides Allah, any other god, of whom he has no proof; then his reckoning is only with his Lord. Surely, the disbelievers will not be successful.) ﴿23:117﴾ The idolators have no evidence for what they are doing, which has led them into lies and misguidance. Rather they are following their forefathers and predecessors who were confused and ignorant, as Allah describes them:

﴿إِنَّا وَجَدْنَآ ءَابَآءَنَا عَلَى أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَى ءَاثَـرِهِم مُّقْتَدُونَ﴾

("We found our fathers following a certain way and religion, and we will indeed follow their footsteps.'') ﴿43:23﴾

﴿مَا اتَّخَذَ اللَّهُ مِن وَلَدٍ وَمَا كَانَ مَعَهُ مِنْ إِلَـهٍ إِذاً لَّذَهَبَ كُلُّ إِلَـهٍ بِمَا خَلَقَ وَلَعَلاَ بَعْضُهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ سُبْحَـنَ اللَّهِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ عَـلِمِ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَـدَةِ فَتَعَـلَى عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ﴾


Now to understand what these verses are saying just watch this video by a hindu claiming that polytheism is actually monotheism and even better. This is called defensive argument and justifying the unjustifiable. The Quran says that this will not be accepted as a defense and a justification.

Now watch this and you will see what these verses are saying:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YujY2pepGmo

He is claiming that hindusim is actually monoteism with a polytheistic naming and imagining of God. Just like the pagans of Mecca claimed that their paganism is a monotheistic religion but with a polytheistic intercessions. They would not abandon their gods for nobody.

Meanwhile this guy is stating exactly what the verses are saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVRH...eature=related

He says:

"Hindus all believe in one Supreme God who created the universe. He is all-pervasive. He created many Gods, highly advanced spiritual beings, to be His helpers."

Just like the verses are telling us.


In the end they would not change because that is how they were raised. Its all defensive argument and trying to distort what paganism and shirk is by trying to justify it. Even a casual glance at the pagans theology we know that no sane mind can accept it. So humans need a defense mechanism. The Quran will not accept that argument and said the real reason is they do not want to abandon what thier ancestors did even if their ancestor were silly.

To understand the verses of the Quran you need to understand who its refering to. By debating pagans as the prophet did you will understand what these verses are saying. That video says it all.

Now look at their actual aqeeda


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yWwFWpbRo


Need I need to say more?

Exactly. It is the flawed understanding of these verses that is behind their whole misguidance where they are in a state incapable of even providing a alternate coherent definition of shirk and worship.

You would be interested in the following to see how what you say is established by proper reading of the Quran itself:
http://hornofsatan.wordpress.com/ans...ur-principles/

[AbdurRaheem2]

Bigmo I think you would like al-Biruni (ra), 1000 years ago he studied many religions in a rational and scientific way and wrote books on them. His knowledge was part of a booming Islamic tradition of science and research during the era.

Al-Bīrūnī is one of the most important Muslim authorities on the history of religion.[31] Al-Biruni was a pioneer in the study of comparative religion.

He studied Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, and other religions.

He treated religions objectively, striving to understand them on their own terms rather than trying to prove them wrong. His underlying concept was that all cultures are at least distant relatives of all other cultures because they are all human constructs.

“What al-Biruni seems to be arguing is that there is a common human element in every culture that makes all cultures distant relatives, however foreign they might seem to one another.” (Rosenthal, 1976, p. 10).

Al-Biruni was disgusted by scholars who failed to engage primary sources in their treatment of Hindu religion. He found existing sources on Hinduism to be both insufficient and dishonest. Guided by a sense of ethics and a desire to learn, he sought to explain the religious behavior of different groups.

Al-Biruni divides Hindus into an educated and an uneducated class. He describes the educated as monotheistic, believing that God is one, eternal, and omnipotent and eschewing all forms of idol worship.

He recognizes that uneducated Hindus worshipped a multiplicity of idols yet points out that even some Muslims (such as the Jabiriyya) have adopted anthropomorphic concepts of God. (Ataman, 2005)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%A...r%C5%ABn%C4%AB

Also you may find this article on the interaction between Hindus and Muslims in the many centuries there has been a Muslim presence in India. As you will see things are far more complicated than it seems you have assumed and there has been a broad interaction between Muslims and Hindus leading to various Muslim assessments of their religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E...amic_relations

Many other interesting learned Muslims have studied various non-Muslim religions deeply in history and in the modern era and have written on them and their writings have gone into the libraries of places of learning in Muslim countries and have influenced Islamic thought on non-Muslim religions.

You have to remember that the Islamic civilization was like a sponge taking things in from outside. Even in the 800's CE the Muslims were digesting the knowledge of the old world Africa, Asia and Europe and people were coming into the Caliphate from hundreds of lands making it a very cosmopolitan place.

The House of Wisdom (Bayt al Hikma University and translation centre) was established 830 CE by the Abbasids in an era when the Muslim lands were benefiting immensely from the new knowledge, technologies, learnings and sciences. In this the lands of the Caliphate would also benefit from new public hospitals, whilst Muslim sailors would begin to trade with China over sea routes.

Caliph al-Mamun oversaw the establishment of this great University. It would be a great research centre and educational establishment where all the sciences and learning of the civilizations would be brought together, translated into Arabic, digested and improved upon for the well being of the citizens of the Caliphate and the world as a whole.

Indeed the Abbasid age in general saw the Islamic consumption and improvement of the existent sum of science and human civilization in the age. All human knowledge from the old world became the property of the Muslim thinkers and they proceeded to make great leaps in all areas of science.

The Islamic wisdom taught by the Holy Prophet (may God bless him and give him peace) created a river of moral and intellectual rebirth in the world which sprang forth and would continue to flow for centuries. A tidal wave of good will spread throughout the truly believing followers of the Prophet (may God bless him and give him peace) and as the Islamic knowledge was codified and recorded, both in books and in the oral teachings of the great Muslims, it was augmented by the best of the knowledge of the great civilizations of Persia, India, Greece and even China.

Islam had spread throughout the world with great speed in the early years of the Islamic society. The Caliphate inherited and greatly developed the artistic genius of the Persians. From wonderful mystical poetry to beautiful art objects the Persian skills, which had taken two thousand years to develop, were revitalized and used in better ways than ever before and become popular beyond the old Persian borders.

From India the Caliphate inherited the advanced mathematics and astronomy of the four thousand year old Hindu civilization. Rather than just talking on these ideas without review or analysis the great Muslim thinkers immediately began improving upon them.

From the Hellenic world the Caliphate inherited the great works of Greek philosophy, sciences and medicine. Muslim philosophers translated the works of Plato, Aristotle and Euclid, along with Neo-Platonic writings, whilst Muslim physicians began studying and improving upon the works of Hypocrates and Galen.

The Islamic thinkers took the knowledge and capabilities from many other lands.

Roman and Persian architects were called to assist with the construction of great Islamic buildings such as Masjid al-Aqsa and their skills passed into the pool of Muslim knowledge. The knowledge and capabilities of many lands such as Greece, Rome, Persia and India were suddenly synthesized and utilized by the idealistic Muslims to produce a society and a civilization unlike any ever seen before since the times of Prophet Idris (Enoch) and later Prophet Soloman (peace and blessings be upon them both).

The knowledge of these ancient cultures was not usually that of those who were strangers to the Muslims, but rather, quite often that of those who were ancestors to particular Muslim communities, reflecting the multi-racial and multi-cultural nature of the Caliphate. It could be said that the Islamic Caliphate has generally been a beautiful and truly multicultural society based upon the rule of benevolent Divine Law and thoughtful civilization. Islam teaches tolerance and charity between Muslims. It teaches that the Muslim Ummah is a whole and that all the Muslims are its parts.

The Abbasid Caliphs were strong on sponsoring research into the sciences and the Islamification of the knowledge of the peoples of the world since the early days of their dynasty.

Even as early as the second Abbasid Caliph al-Mansur the medical works of Galen and Hippocrates had been translated into Arabic by the official translator Abu Yahya ibn al Batriq. At the Bayt al Hikma scholars and scientists from Arabia, Persia, India, Greece, Africa, Transoxiana, and China (amongst other places) were able to teach and cross fertilize their ideas.

The Bayt al Hikma itself had a great library, an academy, observatories and astronomical observatories. It was a place where particular importance was placed upon the translation of ancient Greek philosophical and scientific works.

Missions were sent out into the world to collect rare and important books and the Byzantine s were paid great sums to hand over ancient Greek manuscripts, which were immediately transported back to the Bayt al Hikmah and translated by the Muslims and Christians who worked there and in the century from 750-850 CE a golden age of translation occurred that gave the Abbasid Caliphate access to all the learning of the old world.

The works that were translated were often translated into Hebrew or catalogued contained information on the authors, the contents and other relevancies to each book and it covered countless books on subjects from linguistics to chemistry. The number of great Muslim scientists during this period was legion and their works were beyond anything that had gone on before. Latin as well as Arabic and thus the people of Europe would gradually come to benefit from the Bayt al Hikmah as books gradually reached the intellectual backwater that was their home.

( source http://abodeofmercy.wordpress.com/?s=bayt+al+hikma )

Bayt al Hikma was just a small part of a bigger process in which over the centuries the learned Muslims digested the thoughts of the old world and whatever thoughts or ideas they were you can be sure that some learned Muslim pondered on them and knowledge filtered out into the broader society.

This included much information about pagan religions that went into books, many of which are no longer existent thanks to mongols, crusaders and colonialists destroying Islamic libraries on many occasions, but which introduced ideas and understandings into the highly learned discourse of the religious intellectual elite of Islam.

So when you casually imply that learned Muslim scholars of both secular and religious knowledge like Shah Waliullah (ra) didn't understand shirk (but apparently you do) because you wrongly think they don't know anything about pagan religions all you are really is showing your lack of knowledge about the learned Imams of the religion in history.

[Bigmo]

Bigmo I think you would like al-Biruni (ra), 1000 years ago he studied many religions in a rational and scientific way and wrote books on them. His knowledge was part of a booming Islamic tradition of science and research during the era.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ab%C5%A...r%C5%ABn%C4%AB

Also you may find this article on the interaction between Hindus and Muslims in the many centuries there has been a Muslim presence in India. As you will see things are far more complicated than it seems you have assumed and there has been a broad interaction between Muslims and Hindus leading to various Muslim assessments of their religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu%E...amic_relations

Many other interesting learned Muslims have studied various non-Muslim religions deeply in history and in the modern era and have written on them and their writings have gone into the libraries of places of learning in Muslim countries and have influenced Islamic thought on non-Muslim religions.

You have to remember that the Islamic civilization was like a sponge taking things in from outside. Even in the 800's CE the Muslims were digesting the knowledge of the old world Africa, Asia and Europe and people were coming into the Caliphate from hundreds of lands making it a very cosmopolitan place.



( source http://abodeofmercy.wordpress.com/?s=bayt+al+hikma )

Bayt al Hikma was just a small part of a bigger process in which over the centuries the learned Muslims digested the thoughts of the old world and whatever thoughts or ideas they were you can be sure that some learned Muslim pondered on them and knowledge filtered out into the broader society.

This included much information about pagan religions that went into books, many of which are no longer existent thanks to mongols, crusaders and colonialists destroying Islamic libraries on many occasions, but which introduced ideas and understandings into the highly learned discourse of the religious intellectual elite of Islam.

So when you casually imply that learned Muslim scholars of both secular and religious knowledge like Shah Waliullah (ra) didn't understand shirk (but apparently you do) because you wrongly think they don't know anything about pagan religions all you are really is showing your lack of knowledge about the learned Imams of the religion in history.

I agree with you. I was just talking about the verses often cited claiming that the pagans of Mecca believed that God was the sole creator and sustainer. If you look at those verses yoy would see the Quran condemning them for that argument because they were actually trying to justify shirk by playing with words. Like we only worship them because God needs many names or God needs helpers or God needs intercessors and this makes the religion more diverse since everybody can have their own way of reaching God etc and that God can be reached in many ways etc. This is the arguemnt I was talking about and the verses relating to that.

You are right, individually many people have different views. In the Quran some of the Meccans believed in the prophet's message, some did but kept it secret, others mocked, others were startled and thought he was crazy, others walked away as if they didn't hear him and others persecuted him and wanted to kill him. Some were just skeptical. So yes you are right. But i was trying to comment on those specific verses that was used.