Argumentative Muslims --> APOSTASY!!

**Revert2001** · 01-08-2012, 02:11 AM

Originally Posted by Idil_

''people who consider deen to be all about religious debate and hairsplitting, a focus on superficiality, and judgmental behavior.''

This describes this forum to the T.

True on many levels sister......

**zahed73** · 01-08-2012, 06:00 AM

Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans .
If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah )

and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge.
Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi

Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ...

Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments .

We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ...

Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah .

The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah.
You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ?
Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse?

**Acacia** · 01-08-2012, 06:08 AM

Originally Posted by zahed73

Not all arguments are negative . There will always be ' Ikhtilaf ' . It is natural for humans .
If I remember correctly as scholars say there are Ikhtilaf e Majmum ( disagreement that are complete fitnah )

and what is called Ikhtilaf e Mahmud ... Arguments which are described as something that is not by nature dividing the Ummah but some groups have made them source of Fitnah by their own misunderstanding / lack of knowledge.
Example senseless arguments between Madhabs or more apparent in our time the opposition to Madhab by Ahle Hadis / Ghair Muqalleds / La madhabi

Got me interested to go back and see the reference source for more Info ...

Something peculiar in the Muslim world when it comes to arguments .

We argue on things that really do not have much significance , example there are people who argue on the smallest things like how long your beard should be ...

Where as when is comes to arguing against someone who is in effect changing the very nature of Islamic shariah as we exist and live our lives in this century... Example Ahle hadis or even going against Tawhid , example Qadiyani and shia people go all touchy and call for Unity of Ummah .

The latter case to my knowledge demands that you argue from fear of Allah.
You think we will not be asked what you said in defense of what you know as true ?
Being silent for sake of Unity will be a valid excuse?

**Dawud Israel** · 07-08-2012, 05:43 AM

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

**Maripat** · 07-08-2012, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dawud Israel

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

You are talking about a situation where utmost kindness and tenderness is needed so tough talking will be the least productive option.

**aMuslimForLife** · 07-08-2012, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Dawud Israel

Something I have been thinking about lately, especially seeing the anger, arguing and rigid behaviour in threads on this forum...please brothers and sisters, stay away from arguing and take care of your fellow brothers and sisters soul. Islam will endure, but not every Muslim will die a Muslim, so take care of them.

Here are Abdullah bin Hamid Ali's words on this topic. For those who want to read more on this can add him on Facebook.

In that same thread...on one sister's leaving Islam...

I largely blame Salafism (the new Islam) for all this... These people have forced people into debate and have made masjid an unpleasant place to visit. You would rather spend time study other things in the religion, but these people (salafis) force you to study things which Allah will not question you about, like, Does Allah have a hand literally or not.. And other non-sense... Only whenn you are able to defend yourself do they (salafis) leave you alone. I unfortunately know 3 people who left Islam, two of them studied overseas...

**iSawab** · 07-08-2012, 06:27 PM

A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam.
Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later.

**Starting_anew** · 07-08-2012, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by Dawud Israel

How come none of the tough talking SFers never commented on this thread?

I'm not tough talking (i hope) - but reading this thread is just sad and I don't feel I can contribute, so I stay silent.

**aMuslimForLife** · 07-08-2012, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by iSawab

A lot of arguments at the local level (as opposed to the scholarly level) revolves around people justifying their batil actions in the light of permissibility of those actions in Islam.
Every once in a while an influential scholar will get through to them, bluntly of otherwise. Regardless, the scene repeats itself months or years later.

The reason we have arguments whether justified or not... it is because we are trying to correct people... That is the root reason people have arguments...
One person believes they are right and the other person is wrong... And many times our correcting people runs people away from Islam... But sometimes we just have to accept people as they are and stop trying to make the world perfect... I have not met anyone who is protected from error....

I don't know where you draw the line... when do you let a person be and when do you correct them??? How do we enjoin the right and forbid the wrong??? I don't know... But I do know, We will not be saved because of our good deeds.... but through Allah's mercy... Ibn Rajab al Hanbali has a nice commentary on this hadith....

What is the solution??? I don't know...

Perhaps we should do less correcting with our tongues and more correcting by being an example... And perhaps by your state who you are, the person who is wrong will want to be like you.... Because talk is cheap.... No one likes to listen to someone who talks the talk but cannot walk the walk...

**mh16388** · 07-08-2012, 06:51 PM

a sister on SF mentioned this very real reason for apostasy and also explained the underlying reason. here is a reconstruction:

"a very common reason also is argumentation.when your whole islamic experience is about refutation, arguing, brawls etc. then your islamic education becomes a tool to know more than others and your time is devoted to knowing more than others. your salah gets ruined and you slip away slowly into apostasy. if anyone suffers from this and is reading this: it is time to stop. leave it to the scholars who can balance this work and their ibadah."

this isnt specific just to salafis. salafis are of many types. this can happen in madhabis too. it can happen to anybody.that being said i never recommend becoming a salafi of any type so please go figure : )