Islamic Democracy!

[Revert2001]

Its not a secret. What is the point in saying Democracy is halal if you are not interested in engaging with counter arguments? Should your views just be dismissed as non sense?

No doubt..............

[abumusab]

Anyone with knowledge of Islamic Fiqh able to respond to this instead?

Quote Originally Posted by abumusab View Post
This is a false analogy from its premise.

Democracy would be like Pig - whatever you did to it, it would not change its essential characteristic.

Cake on the other hand, like all material objects, is universal and not restricted by belief and the ingredients of the cake will determine if it is halal. The exception to the universality of objects would be those objects which Allah has made haram such as Alcohol and those which result from another belief such as a christian cross or jewish skull cap.

Democracy, on the other hand, is not an object but a ruling system which is not from Islam. When it comes to action, Muslims are restricted to taking only that which our Nabi (saw) has brought:

Take what the messenger brings you and abstain from what he forbids you. Be mindful of Allah, Allah is severe in punishment (59.7)

This verse means that whatever the Nabi did not bring in terms of rules (let alone an entire ruling system), we are not allowed to take it.... not to mention the countless verses which order that sovereignty belongs to Allah and not subject to man's whims and desires, which is what results when you attempt to conjure up a so-called "Islamic-Democracy" - ie law of man mixed in teh equation of law of Allah.

“Verily the Hukm (ruling) is for none but Allah” (Yusuf 40)

“And rule between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their desires and beware of them that they may seduce you away from some of that which Allah has revealed to you” (Al-Maa'idah 49)
Quote Originally Posted by abumusab View Post
Until now, no-one has been able to refute this fundamental premise based on Islamic evidences. And it is evident the advocates of Democracy fumble in justification mode in not being able to provide a single evidence from Quran and Sunnah, the final arbiter for all Muslims. And furthermore, they are shy to define Democracy, perhaps knowing that in any shape or form, the sovereignty of Shariah is compromised in making man equal to Allah as the legislator of the halal and haram.

The attempt to misconstrue shurah is ample proof of the failure to import democracy into Islam when anyone with basic knowledge would know that there is no Shurah on legislative matters but on non-legislative matters only. Our Nabi (saw) would consult Muslims on where they would like to fight, in Mecca or Madina, for Badr for example but never on the laws of Jihad.

In fact, in every legislative matter, our Messenger (saw) would await revelation and never consult the people since sovereignty belongs only to what Allah has revealed in all legislative matters.

Our Nabi (saw) said: “The Halal is that which Allah has made Halal in his Book, and the Haram is that which Allah has made Haram in his Book.” (Hadith)

As for any matter which is subject to Ijtihad, the Sahabah have demonstrated that whatever opinion the Imam/Amir/Khalif adopted on any matter was done without any Shurah and the Muslims enacted despite having a different opinion, as was the case when Abu Bakr (ra) adopted that booty acquired from Jihad should be distributed equally while he was Khalif but Omar (ra) differed in his ijtihad which was the spoils should be divided relative to duration of their embracing of Islam, but enacted Abu Bakr's adoption in his capacity as the Khalif.

[abumusab]

Originally Posted by abumusab View Post
Scientific and technological inventions do not emanate from a creed or ideology nor did any creed or ideology result in their discovery. So for example, both the Capitalists and Communists invented the Nuclear bomb since the invention was not as a result of the ideology but the human effort and research. They can be discovered by anyone who exerted himself regardless of his belief as science and technology have no religion or ideology.

Democracy is not a scientific or technological invention but the ruling system specifically emanating from secularism in which after Religion was banished from State, sovereignty belongs to man. So it would be false to liken the ruling system, which does emanate from a belief, to science and technology which is universal.

People here claim that things invented by muslims in predominately muslim countries are "Islamic Inventions"

So conversely; cars, airplanes, telephones, etc., that were invented by Christians in predominately christian nations should be called "Christian Inventions"

Makes sense to me...........

Oh I see from where the confusion emanates. We should be accurate and call the discoveries in scientific and technological matters by Muslims as Muslim inventions ie invented by Muslims. To call them Islamic Inventions would imply that that they emanated from the revelation ie the Quran and Sunnah and their discovery was only possible via the Quran and Sunnah. In the same way, Western scientific and technological advancements cannot be ascribed to Christianity, or more accurately secularism as they were made after Christianity had been banished from state and society.

The key point in the context of this discussion is that Islam permits the adoption of science and technology from others based on the verses of the Quran which Allah has made halal all things he has created as the precept unless specifically prohibited whereas legislation is restricted to only that which has been revealed to our Nabi (saw) as stated in the Quran: "Whatever the messenger brought to you take it...." ie if he did not bring it don't take it.

Hence, the prohibition of Democracy from its foundation as it was not brought by our Rasool (saw), even if we were to ignore the numerous verses which order legislation is for none but Allah, our lord and master of the worlds.

[Saleem01]

brother connect your heart to the parts of the Ummah that had to live under these people.

things are not perfect now, but they are a lot better than before



and they will improve gradually InshaAllah



in the current situation it may be like the race of the tortoise and the hare

the taliban and union of Islamic courts were like the hare - they moved fast and got the prize but lost it because its political, foundations and groundwork were insubstantial (notably they were seen as illegitimate by the world who would attack them)

MB in North Africa and Shams are the tortoise, they move slowly but they may win the race to reestablish Islam (through ways that are not so controversial and that do not shock others into attacking us) as a independent political reality in the end InshaAllah

Salaam brother,

I think most Muslims understand and feel the connection to other parts of the Ummah and definitely find it difficult to see our fellow brothers and sisters suffer in our lands. As our Prophet (saw) mentioned that the Ummah is like one body, if one part feels pain the rest of the body suffers.

Things are definitely not perfect at the moment but what we have now is still not Islam. Can we accept it even though they may seem 'better than before'?

When the Muslims were being persecuted in Makkah did the Prophet (saw) look for a temporary solution to make it easier for them and then hope things would improve gradually?

For things to improve gradually, it would imply that we make a compromise in the Deen and slowly reach to where we are aspiring to be. This is not from the method of the Rasul (saw).

Please respond Insha'Allah.

Jzk

[greenchanda]

Salam,

Insha'Allah we take part in discussions like this in order to seek the pleasure of Allah swt by being sincere and honest.
REVERT2001 has constantly made statements he is unable to support via Islamic evidences. Rather his recent comments have been pathetic to say the least. Not sure what he reverted to.

I suggest admin send him a polite note.

Alhamdullilah other brothers have shown that democracy has no place in Islam and have used Islamic evidences to back up this position.

Finally, brothers/sisters to attribute anything falsely to Islam intentionally is a major sin. Bare this in mind.

Jzk to the sincere muslims posting to preserve this perfect ideology - Al Islam.

[Qawlan Sadeeda]

Exactly when did I mention secularism as being compatible with Islam??

You are confused.........

I didn't say you did but following on from your argument that if democracy is compatible with Islam then why can secularism not be compatible?
If one takes the creator away from ruling or puts man on the same level as the creator then what is that, secularism? Try following the discussion that might help you.

I assume you converted in 2001 which means you have had ample time to study the deen of Islam but you are the one who seems confused unless you were born in 2001 hence the lack of comprehension, maturity and even sincerity at times. You should question the one who taught you your deen is the advice I would give you.

[Revert2001]

REVERT2001 has constantly made statements he is unable to support via Islamic evidences. Rather his recent comments have been pathetic to say the least. Not sure what he reverted to.

So not agreeing with your position on the issue of Democracy as a viable political system within the framework of Islam.

Somehow invalidates my status as a revert to Islam?

You might want to rethink that statement...........

[Qawlan Sadeeda]

Exactly do you attempt to refute a post that starts out with:

"Democracy would be like Pig - whatever you did to it, it would not change its essential characteristic".

Once again, pure lack of comprehension or is it a case of unable to provide Islamic evidences for his/her arguments! You are the first convert I have met who struggles to grasp the basics of a conversation nevermind Islamic principles. Converts are normally more profound than muslims born in muslim families but you are an exception to the rule.

Please provide evidences or counter arguments against AbuMusab's post.

[Revert2001]

I didn't say you did but following on from your argument that if democracy is compatible with Islam then why can secularism not be compatible?

That is a rather silly statement.

Democracy and secularism are two totally different ideologies.

And one doesn't automatically include the other.

You can have a secular society and it not be a democracy; communist Russia would be a great example.

Or you can have a democracy and not a secular government; many Latin American and South American Catholic countries are an example of this.

btw Yes, 2001 is my Islamic birthday; so I guess I am 11 years old.

Just saying..........

[Revert2001]

Converts are normally more profound than muslims born in muslim families but you are an exception to the rule.

Sorry that I don't meet your personal standards for reverts.

Makes me feel bad..............Not!!