Help. Doubts and Quran-Alone movements.

[abu abdul-kareem]

These so called Quraniyyoun's are out of the fold of Islam anyway, so what your realy doing is Da'wah and not debating. And to give a simple analogy, if you were at work or at some public event and some said to you "why does Islam promote terroism", wouldn't you feel it necessary to discuss with them why they thought that then try and clear that accusation about are Deen?

[laughinglion]

I think these people should be likened to renegades from the Deen. In wich case da`wa not, specifically, correct for them, thay are asked to repent or...

As for `aqeeda, it is considered to be able to be derived by the `ammi (common folk) from the Qur'an, with minimal effort. Thus dispensing with the need for taqlid. Wa'Llahu a`lam.

With Peace.

[abu abdul-kareem]

I think these people should be likened to renegades from the Deen.

Salamu alaykom akhi laughinglion, please believe me that my question to you is in no way confrontational, but could you explain to me what you mean by renegades?

Wa Salam

[laughinglion]

People who were Muslim and have since left the Deen or claim to be Muslim but deny the principle source of the Deen, Nabiyu'l-Kareem

With Peace

[mo.mentum]

Salaam and Peace to you all.

Sincerely, may God reward you all for helping me through this. I feel alot better now. Masha'Allah

I've realized another thing that made things clearer. True, there is much debate about the validity of _all_ Hadith, but not the concept of Hadith itself. That cannot be disputed. Also, it is important to seperate between Sunna and Hadith. Sunna is based on practice, and practice is best transmitted by practice. I trust the Sahaba and Allah was pleased with them, so I'm 100% sure that the Sunna (the rituals, practices, ways of serving God) have been preserved. So even if some may doubt the Hadith, the Sunna and Aqidah are clear.

The ennemies of Islam might sway our hearts by trying to make us doubt the Hadith, but they forget that the Sunna itself isn't derived from Hadith directly, for it has been practiced through an unbroken chain in history. It would be hard to debate this since we would see an obvious point in time when these practices would've started or changed. Hence, we are able to label certain groups as khawarijj, renegades, heretics or whatever the order of the day is, as their practices diverged from the main core.

I praise Allah for preserving this Deen so that our generation can still benefit from it!@!#!$# And i am very happy to say that my brothers here have helped me realize this. I love you guys !!! :P

Wassalaam!

[Hmmm]

With respect to sunnah vs hadith, you may be interested to look at how the different schools approached this issue.

Imam Shafi took quite a direct equivalence between the two, not placing many restrictions on the application of and usage of a hadith to formulate normative Islamic law provided it met the criterion in terms of chain of transmission.

He disagreed in this with Imam Malik, who preferred amal, the practice of the people/scholars of Medina (http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ley/Page1.html) as a primary source of understanding the Sunnah and its preservation.

Imam Ahmad's view was similar to Imam Malik's and Imam Abu Hanifa's view with respect to the best methodology to understand the Sunnah had elements Imam Malik's view (single chain narrations could be rejected if clearly against the common practice).

Of course, they all believed the ijtihad of the other as mutually correct, hence the scholars who employed their methodology and framework for performing ijtihad over the centuries have likewise believed in the mutual validity of the other schools and their slightly different basis as they refined the rulings of the previous generations and responded to new situations.

Also, with respect to earlier referenced pieces, the authority of the sunnah can be found here: http://ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/

theory - with respect to aqeedah, the general state of being is that one does not do taqleed in its basics (books, messengers etc) and believes in these from oneself rather than relying on the belief of the scholar you are following. You basically have to rely on your own, personal belief in these main things rather than following for the sake of following as it were. In the more indepth things, the situation changes somewhat. Some scholars have said its ok to do taqleed in aqeedah provided your shaykhs position doesn't change..

[mo.mentum]

Salaam.

So what your saying is, when it comes to matters of Iman, as in what i personally believe in, there should be no Taqleed as i should come to my own conclusions as to the reality of the Qur'an and what God says. But in matters of practice, ie: what the society/ummah is doing, we should not divide and follow our leaders, which in that case would not be Taqleed, 'cause that is what we are taught.

That makes alot of sense.

[Hmmm]

Hmmm..

Just in case of confusion, I'll try to word it a different way:

Your belief in the oneness of God, his Messengers, his Books, Angels, Destiny and the Day of Judgement is dependent on yourself, not reliant on the belief of others (so if their belief changed in these essentials, yours would too). These are all spelled out pretty clearly in the Qu'ran, so it isn't too tough.. With respect to these basics and the more indepth topics, there is a way which we (as muslims) consider "correct". It's up to each person to have belief in that independent of what another person may believe as that level of understanding is within the remit of just about everyone.

With respect to social matters/understanding of what the limits of the Shariah (will of Allah (swt)) are on a topic, in this you can defer to those of knowledge in the areas in which you are uncertain (as per Qu'ranic injunction which allows this). It's an issue of personal responsibility and capability. The more you know, the more capability and therefore responsibility you have to do your own independent reasoning on the myriad sources we use to understand the Shariah as best we can. This is a bit more consideration of the practical implications of how to live your day to day life and the importance of good scholarship.

Insh'Allah I got the above right - I am not a scholar (or close to one), so hopefully the other members will correct any mistakes I have made.

[Sad ibn Abu Waqqas]

These so called Quraniyyoun's are out of the fold of Islam anyway, so what your realy doing is Da'wah and not debating. And to give a simple analogy, if you were at work or at some public event and some said to you "why does Islam promote terroism", wouldn't you feel it necessary to discuss with them why they thought that then try and clear that accusation about are Deen?

Only if I felt they would be willing to accept what I say, and in that case there would be no need for debate or argument. The aim of debating is to vanquish or silence an opponent: this has its place, but not for laymen.

If I am at a "public event" when I could be in the masjid performing salat, or repenting for my sins, or reciting the Qur'an etc. then I have bigger problems than answering people's objections.

The Kharijis promoted all kinds of misunderstandings of the deen, yet only the most knowledgeable of the Sahaba, like Ibn Abbas(ra), ever tried to debate with them. The sunna is not to enter disuptes, unless one is a scholar.

[Abba]

Salaam.

So what your saying is, when it comes to matters of Iman, as in what i personally believe in, there should be no Taqleed as i should come to my own conclusions as to the reality of the Qur'an and what God says. But in matters of practice, ie: what the society/ummah is doing, we should not divide and follow our leaders, which in that case would not be Taqleed, 'cause that is what we are taught.

That makes alot of sense.

Brother, one thing you should understand is that Prophet saw did not just read out Quran to people, he established a society in which laws of Quran were applied. The practices of Islam have since then been CONTINUOUS that no person of any sense can deny. The practice of Salat, Hajj and Zakat have been consistently DESCRIBED by all historians, religious people and TAUGHT to all people who accepted Islam in any part of the world, denying them is a person who is out of his mind.

I suggest reading Maulana Maudoodi'd book "The Legal Status of Sunnah" which i read in urdu(Sunnat ki Aini Haisiyyat) an excellent read.

Also another very good read is Mufti Taqi Usmani, that was available online as well, but i cannot find the link. May be some brother can help.