Whirling Dervishes a waste of money to see as they are un-Islamic?

[Malangi]

What's your way to know if someone is a waliullah?
Are you sure you're not just confusing writing about Tasawwuf / being a Sufi Shaykh with automatically being a waliullah?..

Great observation which needs further discussion.
Why have we automatically assumed that only a "SUFI" is a Waliullah ?
Do we have any proof for it ?
A scholar,a mujahid,a muballigh....even an ordinary muttaqi Muslim who does not even know the name of Tassawuf is equally a Waliullah.We have somehow restricted the use of this term to 'Sufi,s' only,and we very easily label anyone who talks not in favour of Tassawuf as being a culprit of disgracing AwliaAllah.
Alhamdolillah,I am not one of them.I am in touch with Sufiae karma and I respect them from the core of my heart,but still it looks odd to limit 'Wilayat' to Mashaikh and murideen of a few salasil and leave the rest of the Muslim society out of the fold.The only conditions Quran laid down for Wilayat are "Allazina amano wa Kano yattaqoon".
To elaborate my point: A person who recites La ilaha Illallah all day long,but is not a Mureed in a silsila,nor does he practice dharb and jehr.....neither he considers himself a Waliullah nor others look at him the same way; but another person who is bayat to a Shaikh and practice the same Kalima with dharb and jehr only 200 times a day is considered a Wali by all....and even by himself. Are we in some kind of psychological trape or is it a mass hypnosis ?

[Malangi]

Sorry, I am not here to argue anything. It seems like you didn't go through his poetry. I believe that Allama Iqbal (RA) was an Aulia Allah at the stage of Rind.

For my Sheikh, meet him you will get to know everything by yourself.

Your Shaikh may be "Baba Yahya khan".......who thinks he is an Owaisi Mureed of Iqbal RA.

[Abu_Dahdah]

Great observation which needs further discussion.
Why have we automatically assumed that only a "SUFI" is a Waliullah ?
Do we have any proof for it ?
A scholar,a mujahid,a muballigh....even an ordinary muttaqi Muslim who does not even know the name of Tassawuf is equally a Waliullah.We have somehow restricted the use of this term to 'Sufi,s' only,and we very easily label anyone who talks not in favour of Tassawuf as being a culprit of disgracing AwliaAllah.
Alhamdolillah,I am not one of them.I am in touch with Sufiae karma and I respect them from the core of my heart,but still it looks odd to limit 'Wilayat' to Mashaikh and murideen of a few salasil and leave the rest of the Muslim society out of the fold.The only conditions Quran laid down for Wilayat are "Allazina amano wa Kano yattaqoon".
To elaborate my point: A person who recites La ilaha Illallah all day long,but is not a Mureed in a silsila,nor does he practice dharb and jehr.....neither he considers himself a Waliullah nor others look at him the same way; but another person who is bayat to a Shaikh and practice the same Kalima with dharb and jehr only 200 times a day is considered a Wali by all....and even by himself. Are we in some kind of psychological trape or is it a mass hypnosis ?

Being a Sufi is not the criteria of being a wali. In fact, many so called sufis were zindeeqs.

The criteria:
> Keeping to the commands of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Avoiding the prohibitions of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Following the sunnah of His messenger (SAW) both inwardly or outwardly

As per the criteria - even a hardcore salafi can be a great wali. One only needs to look at the shining examples of Shaykh ibn Uthaymeen, Shaykh as-Sa'adi, Shaykh Shinqeeti etc - May Allah have mercy on them and elevate their rank.

Also - every mu'min is automatically a wali as per the verse in the Quran. It's the level of wilaaya we are talking about here.

And Br. Xtreme - it was meant to be tongue in cheek

[AbdurRaheem2]

It is silly when people try to say that only a Sufi can be a friend of Allah (if any do).

Allah chooses who He loves not us.



Many of the people He loves are at the bottom of society.

Uways al Qarni (raa) was a poor man who survived by picking up the spilt rice out of the sand of the market place.

He had suffered bad health and the people where he lived thought he was a mad man.



We know that there are many haughty scholars and fake sufis who Allah is going to drag on their faces to Hellfire

because they are hypocritical etc

Likewise we can expect that there are many Walis amongst the looked down on groups

like the Midgaan and the Arzals and other who the haughty people think are rubbish.

[AbdurRaheem2]

> Keeping to the commands of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Avoiding the prohibitions of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Following the sunnah of His messenger (SAW) both inwardly or outwardly

anyone who does not do all these things with consistency and excellence is not a Sufi at all

[Abu_Dahdah]

anyone who does not do all these things with consistency and excellence is not a Sufi at all

100% agree, but nowadays if you are in a tareeqah, one can be a "sufi". How different this definition is from the sufis of the salaf.

[Abdul1234]

It is silly when people try to say that only a Sufi can be a friend of Allah (if any do).

Allah chooses who He loves not us.



Many of the people He loves are at the bottom of society.

Uways al Qarni (raa) was a poor man who survived by picking up the spilt rice out of the sand of the market place.

He had suffered bad health and the people where he lived thought he was a mad man.



We know that there are many haughty scholars and fake sufis who Allah is going to drag on their faces to Hellfire

because they are hypocritical etc

Likewise we can expect that there are many Walis amongst the looked down on groups

like the Midgaan and the Arzals and other who the haughty people think are rubbish.

good observation

one reason why we have to remember to be polite and good to every single Muslim or indeed human being

[mh16388]

Allah chooses who He loves not us.

yet innocent people do make this judgement. and their is a chance it may be done on the wrong people. for example taking a fasiq as a Wali. you cant expect them to not judge. hence the distinctions have to be made based on shariat not on judgements on individuals.

Many of the people He loves are at the bottom of society.

you missed the point. the point wasnt about rich or poor. it was about following the sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) exceptionally closely. anybody does that , rich or poor, then one can safely point to them and say they are a Wali. that way people can be given excellent examples of who to look up to in practicing Islam.

[AbdurRaheem2]

you missed the point. the point wasnt about rich or poor. it was about following the sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH) exceptionally closely. anybody does that , rich or poor, then one can safely point to them and say they are a Wali.

no they can't

they could be the biggest hypocrite

who does everything for riya


only Allah knows who are all his Walis


there are many people who we may assume are Walis (especially if many pious good people believe they are)

but we cannot say that everyone who is performing the externals of the religion well is a Wali (even if it is likely that they are),

because we don't know if they are even a Muslim according to Allah (never mind a Wali) they could just be a hypocrite.


At one time Iblees was the one who seemed most pious and obedient in the world

and there is not a place where he has not worshiped Allah

before his inner evil became apparent on his exterior.


So do not say 'we can safely point to them and know they are a Wali', because only Allah knows if they are.

Instead say 'they are pious' because this is something clear.

Don't be certain anyone is a Wali unless the Ulema and Mashaikh popularly consider them to be or you have other similar strong reasons to hold this belief.

[mh16388]

Don't be certain anyone is a Wali unless the Ulema and Mashaikh popularly consider them to be or you have other similar strong reasons to hold this belief.

this is true.

the guidelines were discussed in detail on SF.