Whirling Dervishes a waste of money to see as they are un-Islamic?

[aMuslimForLife]

The criteria:
> Keeping to the commands of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Avoiding the prohibitions of Allah and His messenger (SAW)
> Following the sunnah of His messenger (SAW) both inwardly or outwardly

Also - every mu'min is automatically a wali as per the verse in the Quran. It's the level of wilaaya we are talking about here.

Being a Wali is not necessarily about one's outward action... One's outward action determines who we can take as an example... Being a wali is about whether or not Allah has chosen that individual... or has a special concern for that individual... And has chosen to protect that person and guide that person, and this person can be in present form be a believer or a disbeliever, as Allah doesn't judge people on how they are now but how they will die... Because of this I think it was Imam Qurtubi who said, Abu Bakr was a Wali even when he was a disbeliever... Because of this, it is said, Allah has hidden three things in three things... His reward among good deeds, as we don't know which good deed Allah will reward... and His punishment among bad deeds, and His Awliya among the people... So be just, kind and merciful to everyone... because he who wages war against a Wali of Allah... will not win...

I say it is not necessarily about one's actions because Allah has tried us all with sins... Some of these sins are easy for us to stay away from and other sins are difficult for us to get rid of, or stay away from... What matters is whether or not that person repents after he/she sins.... Because all of us sin... And we don't know who repentance is accepted or rejected... So just because you see someone sinning, doesn't mean they are not a wali.... It is said, if man did not sin, Allah would destroy all of mankind and create a people who sinned. (not sure of the wording - but the meaning is true) Sometimes Allah will reveal someone's sins to you, just to see if you will follow the sunnah and conceal it... However some of us think if Allah reveals a sin to us, that it our job to expose it... But that is not the sunnah.....

And Allah knows best...

[Abu_Dahdah]

Being a Wali is not necessarily about one's outward action... One's outward action determines who we can take as an example... Being a wali is about whether or not Allah has chosen that individual... or has a special concern for that individual... And has chosen to protect that person and guide that person, and this person can be in present form be a believer or a disbeliever, as Allah doesn't judge people on how they are now but how they will die... Because of this I think it was Imam Qurtubi who said, Abu Bakr was a Wali even when he was a disbeliever... Because of this, it is said, Allah has hidden three things in three things... His reward among good deeds, as we don't know which good deed Allah will reward... and His punishment among bad deeds, and His Awliya among the people... So be just, kind and merciful to everyone... because he who wages war against a Wali of Allah... will not win...

I say it is not necessarily about one's actions because Allah has tried us all with sins... Some of these sins are easy for us to stay away from and other sins are difficult for us to get rid of, or stay away from... What matters is whether or not that person repents after he/she sins.... Because all of us sin... And we don't know who repentance is accepted or rejected... So just because you see someone sinning, doesn't mean they are not a wali.... It is said, if man did not sin, Allah would destroy all of mankind and create a people who sinned. (not sure of the wording - but the meaning is true) Sometimes Allah will reveal someone's sins to you, just to see if you will follow the sunnah and conceal it... However some of us think if Allah reveals a sin to us, that it our job to expose it... But that is not the sunnah.....

And Allah knows best...

Salaam

I would disagree with the first statement - it's a combination of both inward and outward. For example, a person may pray with a lot of kushoo' in his salah and be absolutely drenched in the love of Allah - but if he believes in doing 3 sujood/rak'ah instead of 2 - sadly his actions are in vain. Similarly, one can claim wilaaya but walk around naked (some of these yogi-styled sufis do so). How can this person be one of the awliyaa?

And yes - of course - a wali can and will sin. No one is protected from sin except the anbiya. So sinning doesn't take away from a person's wilaaya as long as he doesn't persist in them and does hasty repentance.

May Allah make us his close walis.

Indeed, the most worthy of Abraham among the people are those who followed him [in submission to Allah ] and this prophet, and those who believe [in his message]. And Allah is the waliyy of the believers. [3:68]

[umar_italy]

Great observation which needs further discussion.
Why have we automatically assumed that only a "SUFI" is a Waliullah ?
Do we have any proof for it ?
A scholar,a mujahid,a muballigh....even an ordinary muttaqi Muslim who does not even know the name of Tassawuf is equally a Waliullah.We have somehow restricted the use of this term to 'Sufi,s' only,and we very easily label anyone who talks not in favour of Tassawuf as being a culprit of disgracing AwliaAllah.
Alhamdolillah,I am not one of them.I am in touch with Sufiae karma and I respect them from the core of my heart,but still it looks odd to limit 'Wilayat' to Mashaikh and murideen of a few salasil and leave the rest of the Muslim society out of the fold.The only conditions Quran laid down for Wilayat are "Allazina amano wa Kano yattaqoon".
To elaborate my point: A person who recites La ilaha Illallah all day long,but is not a Mureed in a silsila,nor does he practice dharb and jehr.....neither he considers himself a Waliullah nor others look at him the same way; but another person who is bayat to a Shaikh and practice the same Kalima with dharb and jehr only 200 times a day is considered a Wali by all....and even by himself. Are we in some kind of psychological trape or is it a mass hypnosis ?

Uhm... Maybe because we've restricted the broad general concept of walayah to that specific one of sufi rah-e-walayah?..

[Ansari]

So it is possible for a wali to be one even if he persists in his sins

Please bring forward quotes from the real classical sufis.

Also bring quotes showing there is a difference of shariah and haqiqa.

[aMuslimForLife]

Please bring forward quotes from the real classical sufis.

Also bring quotes showing there is a difference of shariah and haqiqa.

They wouldn't say it in these words... as my words could indicate that I am saying it is permissible to sin... and I am not saying it is permissible to sin...

And Allah knows best....

[Abdul1234]

Being a wali is about whether or not Allah has chosen that individual... or has a special concern for that individual... And has chosen to protect that person and guide that person...

so true

indeed someone may be a Wali who all the people hate and think lowly of

it is not about what people think and what people can see of someone

its about what Allah thinks and what He sees in that person that matter

we should always remember this