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Thread: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

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    Default Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    As-salamu alaykum.

    I know that dhimmi status is given to Christians and Jews living in a Muslim state (who the pay jizya), but would this status also be given to people of other religions or people with no religion (deists, agnostics, atheists, etc.) if a true Islamic state were to be created today?

    JazakAllahu Khayran for all of your help.
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    There were different religious groups existed and still there through out various dynasties where Shariah was enforced.
    Allahualam


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    Senior Member Intrepid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    What percentage of their earning was the jizya, or was it a fix amount?
    What is destined will reach you, even if it be underneath two mountains. What is not destined, will not reach you, even if it be between your two lips


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    Senior Member ahamed_sharif's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid View Post
    What percentage of their earning was the jizya, or was it a fix amount?
    Assalamu alaykum

    I remembered it to be one sadqa-e-fitr (as in eidul fitr) per person per anum.

    اکلتہ الحشیش انتم لھِٰھنا
    وامتہ محمد صل.... فی الفتن

    You live a isolated life.
    And the Ummah of Rasulullah SAS is living in fitan.

    quoted by Moulana Manzoor Nomani RA.


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    Senior Member Abu Zakir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    You should stop using the word state with Islam...Islam is government without state. The word state has a specific meaning in western political thought...Islam is not within it.

    Anyway this Jizya question is theoretical obviously...and you would get many different answers theoretically. The truth is Islamic government differs in time and place and some governments may oppress even Muslims...we do not have the mistaken idea of an idealised Islamic utopia that functions perfectly over a massive territory for hundreds of years. We will get some governments which will be just for a time and in some place and in others times and places there may well be some flaws.

    I think Islamic governments can accommodate other religions and atheists some times depending on how they choose to conduct themselves and at other times they might be deported. We really do not know, the fiqh can be interpreted in many different ways. In concrete terms it may be useful to try to get a picture of Islamic government by getting into these 'what if' type theoretical discussions...but generally they are useless...just people like me expressing their opinion which has no reality anywhere in the world.


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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    Quote Originally Posted by Nomadic View Post
    There were different religious groups existed and still there through out various dynasties where Shariah was enforced.
    Do you happen to have any information on what rights those Shariah-based governments afforded to them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakir View Post
    You should stop using the word state with Islam...Islam is government without state. The word state has a specific meaning in western political thought...Islam is not within it.
    You're absolutely right. I studied Political Science when I was an undergraduate at college/university, so it's just a force of habit. I will have to be more mindful of it when discussing the Shariah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakir View Post
    We really do not know, the fiqh can be interpreted in many different ways.
    That's sort of why I created this thread. I was hoping maybe some members could provide some scholars' opinions on this.
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    Senior Member Usama2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis







    It is of VITAL IMPORTANCE for Muslims to gain awareness and knowledge of what is an Islamic state, how it functions, what are the duties of the believer to the ruler, etc.
    Eventhough there is no state today, it is similar to knowledge of hajj for those who have yet to undertake it- the believer makes the intention and endeavors over time to accomplish it with true knowledge for the sincere worship of Allah. And Allah never allows such good to be wasted. Rather it may be that Allah will build up it to resume such for His Pleasure. But it requires that believers have knowledge!!!



    but would this status also be given to people of other religions or people with no religion (deists, agnostics, atheists, etc.) if a true Islamic state were to be created today?
    It is correct that there must be a state first. But not any state, the proper state is a caliphate. And of that caliphate is a caliph who receives baya` (allegiance) from the believers. He implements Shariah on behalf of the Muslims for the sake of worship of Allah The caliph is NOT a servant of the Muslims, as a president is a servant of the people of a republic. Rather, the caliph is a servant of Allah, which encumbers TAQWA and Khashiya (rather than fear of accountability to people).


    The caliph specifically is empowered to adopt a ruling on who constitutes ahlil dhimmah- people of protection. Are individuals with no deen (agnostics) granted personal dhimmi status? Or is their nationality (aka British) grounds for dhimmi status? Can people who are distinct enemies of Muslims ( Israeli jews) granted dhimmah- protection?
    These would have to be based on how the caliph determines the world political arena at his time.
    According to shaykh al Mawardi's Ahkam Sultaniya, the ahlil dhimmi at his time included people other than ahlil kitab, such as Magians, and zoroastrians. However, these groups were not granted the same privileges of the ahlil kitab, such as houses of worship, or that their women could marry Muslims, or that their meat was halal.


    What percentage of their earning was the jizya, or was it a fix amount?
    Again, according to shaykh al Mawardi, the jizya was determined to be one dirham for only sane adult males of ahlil dhimmah with a certain level of wealth. Women, children, the poor were not counted. How much is that dirham by today's inflated rate, one may calculate it, Or rather, one may calculate it in relation to the price of gold and then reference it today. If an adult male dhimmi fell into poverty, then he would be exempt at that time. And the jizya was determined after one year, rather than initially.

    But the jizya would have to be counted according to how the caliph determines it in his contemporary reality, rather than an arbitrary percentage ( eg. 10% of wealth).


    [btw, I use the term 'state' as the translation of the term "duala" which has been used by fuqaha for centuries. Negative connotations of the concept of a "state" should be watched out for, but the term itself does not necessarily connote a idiosyncratic unIslamic concept, such as 'democracy'. A "duala" refers to a country with a government and society and deen. A "duala islami" - Islamic state, refers to a country with a government and society which is Islamic. The caliph or amir is not limited to how he develops that state in order to accomplish the implementation of Islam, within the boundaries of Shariah. If he needs to develop a vast adminstrative body, or small one, or a temporary one, than that is his authority. Believers follow him as they have rendered a baya` by which Allah is witness. Such is 'state' is distinct from the contemporary "nation state" wherein there are lifelong bureaucrats and state workers with unions who perform duties regardless of rulers without an allegiance to them]

    And Allah knows best.
    Abu Shamah had narrated, via the Sanad of Abi Ziyad bin Hudayr, saying:


    "Omar said to me: Do you know what destroys Islam? I said, No! He said: A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray".


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    Senior Member Abu Zakir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    Theory of Islamic government is valid. In terms of what is allowed and what is not allowed for the Muslim ruler according to Islam. However humans are never perfect, they do not always obey Islamic laws and there are many different interpretations of Islamic jurisprudence. Given this it is impossible to theorize about Islamic government. In many ways the Khalif would just be a dictator (with no negative connotations intended here), doing whatever he deems necessary (this of course happens even now under so called democracy except it is painted in glowing colors).


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    Default Re: Questions about jizya and dhimmis

    Usama2, thank you for your post. I was referring to a caliphate when I used the term "state," but backed away from it because of its negative connotations after Abu Zakir's reply. Caliphate is a much more precise, accurate term to describe the Islamic system of governance, anyway.
    POLL: Should world news and politics be posted on SunniForum?
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?109208

    Clarifying a position/viewpoint/ideology does not indicate agreement with it
    http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?109665


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