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Thread: Sufis and Reincarnation

  1. #11
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    Mystic Muslims such a Sufis believe this to, but it seems Abrahamics are obsessed with the idea that there is only one afterlife (heaven and hell for almost eternity) and any other minority sects are considered heretics (at least in Christianity and Islam).
    Sufis do not believe in reincarnation. This is not true wa Allahu `Alam.

    Reincarnation is one of the 18 agreed upon beliefs that take one outside the fold of Islam.

    Some deviant groups who believe in reincarnation are the Isma`ilis, and the Druze.

    :jazaK:


  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ahsanirfan
    "God generates beings and sends them back over and over again until they return to him"

    This is perhaps the worst translation of:

    002.028
    YUSUFALI: How can ye reject the faith in Allah?- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return.


    Clearly two very different appraoches of looking at the same verse.

    In any case, let me make it clear now. Being someone associated with Sufism myself, and belonging to a Sufi order, I can tell you right now that Sufis DO NOT believe in incarnation. Take your Sufism from a Sufi, not from some orientalist butt-head.

    As for what you have stated:



    To support a claim, even if it be an interpretation, you need some proof. Where is the proof that we will be incarnated? We will be brought back to life, yes, but not in this world.

    As for the central mosque in Islam, this is just your ignorance. Just because we don't have a central physical location, doesn't mean we aren't centralized. Just like in the Catholic church, we have several canonical works that EVERYONE refers to, after the Quran and the Traditions of the Prophet (upon him be peace). We don't have a clergy, doesn't mean that the mass of Muslims do not refer to learned people. Scholaticaly our learned are perhaps more organized than the Catholic church. We've regulated ourselves for 1400 without a central location. Beat that.



    Sufis believe in re-incarnation? Get your facts right. I, as a Sufi, categorically state that Sufis do not believe in re-incarnation. In fact, I could cite a couple of dozen medieval Sufis who disagreed with re-incarnation. For your information, Sufism is part of mainstream Sunni Islam. If anyone says any different, he is blindly ignorant of the reality of Sunni Islam and how it functions.



    Au contrair my dear, Islamic theology is not so nuanced as Catholic theology is. Philosophical arguments aside, if reincarnation is an experience, then, well, first do well by definining reincarnation. Sufis, and indeed all Sunnis, believe in the direct experiential knowledge of God. The verse you quoted has nothing to do with that.



    Well build your argument then. No use you just saying that "I don't believe in this and that" without elucidating your argument.



    I thought we were talking about reincarnation. What has direct experience of God got to with reincarnation. As I said, all Sunni Muslims, and also the Shia Muslims, believe in direct experiential knowledge of God. What has that got to do with reincarnation?



    "Tajdid al Khalq" maybe loosely translated as "Regeneration of Creation." You were dead, God brought you to life. God will cause you to die. And then He will bring you back to life. If He can bring you life once, He can do it again.

    Your a sufi? Hmmm I have met sufis befor and they did believe in reincarnation. As another poster pointed out perhaps not all sufis believe in reincarnation but a good amount do. Anyways we can't say these people that do believe in reincarnation are any more wrong than you as as sufi that believes in reincarnation.

    Gnosticism to a certain exant is like the Christian version of Sufism. Some gnostics believe in reincarnation and some don't (although modern gnosticism is starting up only receantly).

    All muslims believe in direct experiance with God? I don't doubt that, but most muslims, like christians, believe that you have to follow blind dogma to achieve direct experiance with God.


  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar HH
    Sufis do not believe in reincarnation. This is not true wa Allahu `Alam.

    Reincarnation is one of the 18 agreed upon beliefs that take one outside the fold of Islam.

    Some deviant groups who believe in reincarnation are the Isma`ilis, and the Druze.

    :jazaK:
    Some do that I have met. They call themselves Islamic Sufis and I know numerous sources that say that some Sufis do believe in reincarnation.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbackman
    Your a sufi? Hmmm I have met sufis befor and they did believe in reincarnation. As another poster pointed out perhaps not all sufis believe in reincarnation but a good amount do. Anyways we can't say these people that do believe in reincarnation are any more wrong than you as as sufi that believes in reincarnation.
    Depends on what kind of Sufis they were. Authentic Sufis, or just some of those who wanted to claim themselves as Sufi? Secondly, I never said that I am a Sufi. That is indeed a high rank to hold, and I do no have the requisite qualities to bear that responsibility. Let me re-state what I said, in slightly different words. Take Sufism from authentic Sufis. Not from some orientalist butt-head, who more often than not include Sufi-claimers. (Read: William Chittick, Sachito Murata etc.)

    Gnosticism to a certain exant is like the Christian version of Sufism. Some gnostics believe in reincarnation and some don't (although modern gnosticism is starting up only receantly).
    Sufism is NOT a separate idea to mainstream Islam. No use comparing Sufism to Christianity, be it any brand. You really have no idea what Sufism is. You only read what is in the books written by those who do not know what Sufism is, or listen to those who want to claim Sufism but have no idea what it really is. Fat chance of you understanding Sufism that way.

    All muslims believe in direct experiance with God? I don't doubt that, but most muslims, like christians, believe that you have to follow blind dogma to achieve direct experiance with God.
    How is that relevant? And secondly, I never said ALL Muslims believe in a direct experience. I said Sunni and Shia Muslims do. It comes as part of knowing that Sufism is big part of mainstream Islam. Nothing more nothing less. I doubt a Wahhabi Muslim would ever believe in a direct experience with God.


  5. #15
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    To be considered a legitimate sufi, you must have orthodox beliefs and adhere to the shariah.


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    i see people put the word orhtodox in front of everyhtign, from what i have gathered isn't orthodox = modernist?

    also, why not just say islamic belief?..or even 'Aqqedah'?
    Jeza Allahu Anna Muhammadan Sallallahu Alayhi Wa Salaama Howa Ahloo

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
    I'm amoungst the hypocrites here.
    Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!


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    Orthodox means traditional.

    Taqlidi in Arabic I guess?

    تقليدي

    Jazakallahu Khayrun


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    Silverbackman is a nonMuslim, so he will most likely be unfamiliar with terms like aqidah.


  9. #19
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    By orthodox, I mean Sunni, following the Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii or Hanbali madhab, and Athari, Ashari, or Maturidi school of aqidah.


  10. #20
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    Again if you want to know what Tajdid al-Khalq is:

    Allah says in the Qur'an "kullu man `alayha faan" “Everything on it (meaning the world) is passing away into nothingness”. This is in Surah Rahman. And this forms the basis of tajdid al-khalq. That everything that is created quickly passes away into nothingness. And when it is gone, it must be created again. But, this happens so fast, that the senses of the human only see continuous motion or stillness. Like the frames in a movie each being distinct from each other but shown very fast sequentially in time such that to the unassuming observer, everything seems independent of each other and continuous. And this is the real understanding of Taqdeer (Predestination). That Allah creates each of these frames in totally. And there is really no relationship between two of these frames except for the fact that they are shown to us sequentially.

    As for the rational proof for this, we have constructed one in the Previous
    Answers Aqidah Section when explaining why time cannot flow backwards.
    - Shaykh Abu Qanit al-Hassani

    (Guidinghelper.com)
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